Saw on Monday on Fox news that the military is training in California donkeys and mules to carry their gear in Afghanistan. More abuse. What will happen to these donkeys and mules once they need need them?? How will they be treated, get vet care????

Posted by: AAG | August 19, 2009 02:35 PM

The military leaders who sanction the vicious animal abuse MUST be charged with felony cruelty to animals.

Posted by: Brien Comerford | August 19, 2009 08:04 PM

Wow, "need need them?". Do you even know why donkeys and mules are even domesticated, to carry luggage. Just because of this incident you automatically assume that their just going to kill off any animal for trauma research including donkeys and what does "need need them" imply? I don't condone using animals in this way but please stay on topic and don't be ignorant. As to the treatment of the donkeys/mules while in combat, they need them to carry their gear in terrain inaccessible by vehicles. Their not going to let them die as they march on, their going to care for and keep them alive.

Posted by: Wow | August 19, 2009 08:06 PM

It's great how there was a former trauma training teacher there - I'm sure that will make a lot of people think it's not just a bunch of "animal lovers" who know this is wrong.

Posted by: Aneliese | August 19, 2009 11:05 PM

It is extremely hard to believe that there are still people who do such atrocities to innocent animals who can not defend themselves. We are living in the 21st century, not back in the dark ages. We all know better than to have innocent animals abused for the military. Step up, do the right and show the world by leading in example that animals should not be exploited and make the decision to not support the ugly, bloody and inhumane way that these animals are being abused, used & killed.

Posted by: Rhoon Koerner | August 20, 2009 12:01 PM

oh my god~!! cruel!!! ANIMALS have RIGHTS to LIVE too!!! they have mothers to born them to this world.. just like us!! i strongly agree with Brien Comerford!!

Posted by: elen | August 20, 2009 12:47 PM

I'm delighted to see young women doing something more worthwhile than texting and shopping

Posted by: Pamela Ernest | August 20, 2009 01:14 PM

I think that if the military is going to start using donkeys and mules to carry their gear there are probably plenty of them already in Afghanistan, as well as families who could use the money selling their donkey or mule would bring. I also suggest the military remember what happened when it tried to use camels and what a colossal failure that was.

Posted by: Rev. Meg Schramm | August 20, 2009 01:55 PM

And does the military that commits such horrible atrocities really not look down upon those women and girls with their signs, if the military even notices? Does strength respect weakness or rather despise it? The only thing a military respects is if people take up arms and fight successfully and continually against the military with no concern for their own lives, year after year after year, never ceasing, men, women, children, with the determination to die in order to do any damage at all to the enemy. That, and not some girls looking like weak and despicable civilians with signs, is what a military pays attention to. Alternatively, the citizenry should strongly protest to the controllers of the military, those who finance it, the government of Obama and all. You must target protests towards the military's weak spot, the politicians. Protest at their homes and offices. Also protest any recruitment and make sure children are shown what the military is up to. The military fears a lack of recruitment and a lack of funds, not some weak-looking civilians with signs.

Posted by: Stop These Atrocities | August 20, 2009 06:09 PM

I have learned from watching the Discovery Channel that pigs are a good analogue for humans, since they have about the same flesh density as humans. But Discovery has also taught me that they can use a material called ballistics gel. I think it has animal products, but it also has the same consistency of flesh, as well as not involving live animals. You can even include fake blood bags, replica bones and organs, etc. to make it as realistic as possible. You can shoot it all you want, and it won't care!

Posted by: Edward | August 20, 2009 06:58 PM

Society is not allowed to treat animals this way, why should military be allowed to do so? This is barbaric and not acceptable!

Posted by: Monette Gould | August 20, 2009 11:27 PM

I cant believe that this actually goes on. I cant believe that we are supposed to be the most intelligent race on earth.. I SERIOUSLY DOUBT THAT IS TRUE.. How can we be so smart if some of us believe this kind of practice is acceptable.. ITS DISGUSTING AND IM SADDENED DEEPLY.. It needs to stop now. These people are scum of the earth. God sees everything and they will soon meet their Maker and i pray their suffering is for eternity.

Posted by: Tanisha de Villiers | August 21, 2009 01:55 AM

Are you sure the military is not just trying to de-sensitise young soldiers to various atrocities that they could meet in the field of comabt therebye showing them that anything is acceptable and justified no matter how nasty. How do you expect these people to care about anything when you have finished with them? -- compasion, sympathy, humanity for lesser beings, you are exploiting patriotism -- its disgusting, and you are planning on sending more animals out to be abused no doubt -- they say history repeats itself -- how about learning from it as well.!!

Posted by: Mrs. S. Searle | August 21, 2009 06:08 AM

These acts are atrocious. Since I strongly believe in the Barter system, let's trade one offspring or relative for every animal being used in this barbaric fashion, from every military person in service. As inhumane as this sounds, I believe the killing would come to an abrupt halt! This instruction is for demonstration purpose only, but - sure does make you think eh?

Posted by: Lys Devon-Baker | August 21, 2009 09:18 AM

It seems a bit naive to think that the military wouldnt use live animals. It displays real time effectiveness of the ammo they are using as well what to expect in the field. use alternatives? What alternatives to real life? dummies? yeah that wont get expensive. Big for 30$ or dummy for 1000$ ? im sure thats why they are used. Its cruel but im sure they dont have a cheap alternative. And the cruelty to donkeys thing must be a joke. War is hell...they cant pack all of their gear and they dont have any other way of moving it through the mountains. I may not agree with it but again if your not doing anything to offer an alternative why complain?

Posted by: Blaire S. | August 21, 2009 10:48 AM

Are the animals rendered unconscious before mutilation by the Military ? If so how ?
Either way this puts the West on a par with PR China with no laws to protect animals and horrific atrocities condoned by the PRC Govt.

Posted by: neville | August 21, 2009 01:02 PM

stop this immediately

Posted by: saraswathi | August 21, 2009 01:07 PM

Animal - or human - abuse is sickening. Too bad I am Finnish and can´t write the online petition for these poor animals!

Posted by: Christine | August 21, 2009 01:22 PM

Neville-
According to peta.org/trauma, most animals are still concious when the wound/chemical agent is inflicted on them- like a soldier on the battlefield. The only reason why they would make the animal unconcious is for specific stunts where the "soldier" is unconcious, like smacking someone over the head with a shovel, or they are losing too much blood.

Posted by: Edward | August 21, 2009 01:58 PM

I got an idea, why don't we use all the sex offernders and child molesters instead, atleast we would be able to sleep at night! soundly!

Posted by: Hope | August 21, 2009 04:07 PM

Where do I make a donation to fight this problem.

Posted by: Doris Christie | August 21, 2009 08:38 PM

I'm shocked at hearing about this kind of Trauma Training.
I think that the military can
do better than this, on the other hand maybe they won't stop
this until executive order comes. I hope that people here
will contact the President as
chief officer of the Armed Forces and urge him about this.
Now that Healthcare debate is
on, it's good time to press for less animal use in Government Laboratories.

So, get down writing, people.

Posted by: Leopoldo Arias Trejo | August 21, 2009 11:42 PM

In response to Blair S...
I am a healthcare worker who has been taught to provide emergency medicine to individuals with life-threatening trauma. During that training, “real time effectiveness" was a priority; however pigs and goats were not used. That said, I can say with absolute certainty, while putting all animal cruelty claims aside, that teaching military medics to perform human-life saving maneuvers during faux trauma simulations with the use of injured pigs or goats is a substandard, outdated, and quite frankly, negligent training technique. FYI...'inexpensive' does NOT = effective, and 'inexpensive' has no place in the 'meager at best' training sessions of military medics who are no more qualified to administer emergency medicine than the average Joe walking down the street. If the military wants to make a fruitful investment in the skills of these lay individuals, the military must invest in the same anatomically correct, and yes "expensive" dummies that every other reputable trauma teaching institution uses to teach trauma care. It's blatantly ignorant to expect military medics to perform life saving maneuvers on dying soldiers after a few practice sessions on pigs. When I read this it blew my mind! I work closely with dozens of individuals who were trained to perform the same maneuvers, effectively, while local pig populations played safely in the mud. I think it's reasonable to expect the same from the United States Department of Defense. As far as "cost" goes...give me a break! Human simulators can be reused time and time again and are a more reliable indicator of failure or success for many reasons one being a measurable losses of faux bodily fluids. How much does NASA spend on space simulation? Do we train astronauts how to ambulate without the force of gravity by hooking their belt loops to cables and lifting them up in the air? As much as I hate to see animals used in this manner, to me, this is so much more than an animal cruelty issue. Apparently, our American soldiers are not being provided with the latest and most effective training available to save the lives of fellow soldiers and that I find that shocking! When I and others were trained in trauma care, we were provided with the most up-to-date learning resources medicine had to offer and that did not include the use of anatomically incorrect animals. More than once our training has been used to save the life of someone dying from a self-inflicted gunshot wound. More than once our training has been used to save the life of a dying drunk driver. Don’t our dying American soldiers deserve the same healthcare benefits?

Posted by: Dawn Carlisle | August 22, 2009 01:38 AM

I don't really see attractive women in protests I've gone to, maybe I live in the wrong area. Makes them hotter when they have a heart for animal welfare.

Posted by: david | August 22, 2009 02:52 AM

ETHICAL AMERICANS MUST VOICE OBJECTION AGAINST OUR MILITARY USING SUCH BARBARIC CRUEL AND USELESS EXPERIMENTAL PRACTICES AGAINST INNOCENT ANIMALS. IN THE NAME OF WHAT DO WE CALL OURSELVES A LEADING CIVILIZED SOCIETY WHEN OUR OWN MILITARY IS COMMITTING HEINOUS ACTS ON ANIMALS IN THE NAME OF PROGRESS. AFTER THE FIRST CRUEL "EXPERIMENT" THERE CAN BE NO EXCUSE OR QUALIFICATION FOR CONTINUANCE OF THIS BABARIC TARGET PRACTICE! SHAME ON US THE AMERICAN PEOPLE IF WE DO NOT UNITE, RISE UP AND VOICE OUR MORAL VALUES AGAINST SUCH ATROCITIES BY OUR OWN MILITARY.

Posted by: Liza Johnson | August 22, 2009 04:00 AM

Some people are just mean & don't care about the animals and some actually may enjoy the cruelity like Michael Vick but usually for some it's about the money(greed).For him it was probably both.

Posted by: Carole Stough | August 22, 2009 11:47 PM

Hell on earth!

Posted by: Tara Stewart | August 23, 2009 03:38 AM

I'm a military wife and seeing stuff like this doesn't make me proud to say i am one. "I love the military but stop training on live animals"

Posted by: Cammie | August 23, 2009 11:25 AM

My question is :
Instead of training brave soldiers, why are they training ruthless cowards ?

Posted by: Doris | August 23, 2009 12:54 PM

All these comments are wonderful and I'm glad people care so much about the way animals are to be treated. I'll just take a hopeful leap and assume you are all vegans than. In that way, animals are being treated like deserving creatures and not used, abused, neglected, and murdered. Remember that one sin does not outweigh another. Military treating these animals so terribly is despicable, but so is going to the grocery store and being your lunch meat, or gallon of milk. Keep up the fight!!! Damn the man, etc. Go animals!!!

Posted by: Emily | August 23, 2009 04:17 PM

Ref:
Posted by: Cammie | August 23, 2009 11:25 AM

My question is :
Instead of training brave soldiers, why are they training ruthless cowards ?

We that defend this great nation have endured many months away from our families, high temperatures and now being called cowards. This training is critical to save the lives of our young people that have volunteered to “support and defend the constitution” and to ensure that we may execute our freedom of speech.
A coward runs from conflict, these young people run to the sound of the guns. Do you want your medical provider to be the best trained, to be able deal with stress? Nobody enjoys seeing any unnecessary pain to humans or animals.

Patrick Valdez
Command Sergeant Major
US Army

Posted by: Pat Valdez | August 25, 2009 09:11 PM

I've actually done the training. Simulators are terrible because they aren't accurate and malfunction. If there was an alternative I would be all for it. The animals we used were a great representation and though it was sad to see them that way, the same emotions would come if it were a human being. All you healthcare workers that said you get great training, blaseh, blaseh well let me ask you this, can you fit 100+ emts a week in your ER? If you have a facility that can handle that and are willing to, please pass their name forward.

Posted by: Milmom | August 26, 2009 02:08 PM

Milmom, as for an alternative to the real thing, I would like to suggest not going to war. No dead humans, no need for trauma training or the donkeys. Seriously tho, that training is absolutly disgusting and you must have been one cold individual to partake in somthing so barbaric. You have my sympathys.

Posted by: Brad | August 26, 2009 04:46 PM

What upsets me is them denying this is even going on in some places. I was a TDY clerk in the Army and saw many orders for soldiers to do this training at Fort Sam Houston, TX. Last summer there was a PETA protest outside of Fort Campbell. I remember reading about it in the paper and saw where the woman in charge of the schoolhouse flat out denied there being that training or any animals at the schoolhouse. I know for a fact that they do the training in that schoolhouse and I know exactly where the animals are kept....and that's out of site hidden between some buildings. Wish I could have been around for that protest and I would have personally busted their lies on the spot and shown everyone where the animals were.

Posted by: Jamie | August 27, 2009 02:39 PM

I will personally be going through the training of the combat life savers course in a couple of weeks. It is imperative training that my platoon needs before we go into a combat zone so that if someone's leg (an American soldier's, an Afghani child's, etc) gets blown off by a roadside bomb each soldier will have the necessary tools and training to stop the bleeding and possibly save the person's life.
The live animal is under anesthesia when the femoral artery is severed. This severing is a very realistic way to simulate a bleed out type scenario in a safe training environment, on an animal that is going to end up at the slaughter house anyway.

If during my training anything seems cruel, overly violent, and / or tortuous, you can be sure I will voice my concerns to my command. I will check back in after the training so I can talk about it first-hand and perhaps put some minds to rest.

Posted by: marine1 | October 4, 2009 07:46 PM

Marine1,
Good luck Devil Dog!
I wish you well. Give 'em hell.

Posted by: Kurt K | October 5, 2009 04:10 PM

Hold up. I am currently in the military and take it personal when you call us cowards. Do you go over to war in 150 degree weather? No. I personally know how much all the combat gear weighs, and you as I'm guessing a civilian couldn't handle it. We sign up, and go fight in combat, so that YOU can even be able to post that comment. I am a member of PETA, but I am also a proud member of the Army. And needless to say army comes first. We need the most relavent training so when we are over-seas and someone in our unit gets injured we can save thier life. Just remember this before posting offending comments about the military: Without us, you are nothing, America is nothing. We don't like leaving our families for 6-15 months knowing we may never come back. But we do, because we love this country and WE are BRAVE enough to go over and fight for it. Until I see you doing something that brave, you literally have no right to comment about us being cowards. You don't just offend the people doing the abuse to the animals and are in the wrong, you offend all of US soldiers as a whole. Think before you type.
Thanks again for being one of those people that live in America, and enjoy the freedom, but don't realize or support how much any of us soldiers have given up to defend that freedom.

Posted by: Laura | October 5, 2009 05:59 PM

Laura,
I can't thank you enough for what you have sacrificed for our country. I am forever in your debt.

Posted by: Kurt K | October 6, 2009 10:38 AM