I know we cannot help those defenceless pigs now who suffered horrendously. While this is a good step forward for hopeful reform of welfare., I have my doubts unless these companies are made to piss their pants from continual exposure in the public domain, and come to fear Peta ! like those poor innocents. What would be an appropriate sentence for the pieces of '' shit,'' in this case.

Posted by: keith | July 1, 2008 11:50 AM

How can anyone not know how awful the lives are for farm animals and how much they suffer so humans to eat...

You must know they fight for their lives...just as any human would...
How humans can put dead animal flesh into their mouths and chew and swallow I dont know...have a tooth pick to pick the dead animal from between your teeth...
This is 2008 for God Sake, we dont live in the dark ages any longer...Humans can do better than this...

Don't let your body become a graveyard for dead farm animals...for that is what your body becomes when you eat meat...
...you can do better than this...

Please Go Vegan...save up to 100 farm animals per person per year!!!
Save your health and our earth

Posted by: Holly | July 1, 2008 12:16 PM

To the Peta undercover investigators whose cool I could not match:

May the Heavens open up and pour out a Blessing so Great that you will be unable to contain it.
May the Angels from Heaven encamp all around you and protect you from harm.

May God defeat your enemies and turn their evil deeds upon their own heads.

Every tongue that rises up against you in judgement May God Almighty show them to be in the wrong.

The KINGDOM OF GOD is not eat and drink but RIGHTEOUSNESS, PEACE AND JOY.

In the Name of JESUS CHRIST, and our HEAVENLY FATHER, on behaf of the HOLY SPIRIT, and all the SAINTS I release my faith and prayers to Heaven. AMEN!

Good Day!

Posted by: Saucy | July 1, 2008 12:37 PM

Good for PETA! It is upsetting to me to see any animal being abused and mistreated just because it is not considered someones pet.

Animals have just as much right to not be abused and tortured as people do.

Posted by: brandie | July 1, 2008 12:55 PM

I only wish that the same could be done to these Assholes! Those poor babies. I am glad that charges have finally been charged in these types of cases.

I am sorry but, what a bunch of MOTHER FUCKERS, man I am pissed.

Posted by: Feral1 | July 1, 2008 03:05 PM

that is so sad and sick! i remember calling this place a little while back and talking to someone about this and the whole company played stupid and said they were looking into this. they are terrible! they all deserve to sit in jail and have their testicles ripped out! they dont even take this serious or care 1 bit. i dont understand whats wrong with people!

Posted by: Missi | July 1, 2008 03:25 PM

"If he returns to North Carolina from out-of-state ..."
IF? This is an option in NC -- just don't come back and you won't be charged?! And the insularity of these operations never ceases to amaze. So carefully they distance the corporate parent from the actions of its sharecropper suppliers. Sickening at best.

If not for UC investigations such as this one, as well as every one before and subsequent, the real and daily horror in these places would be relegated to nothing more than small-town gossip.

Posted by: PFW | July 1, 2008 04:46 PM

Saucy....AMEN!!!!!

Rest in peace, piggies!!!!

Posted by: Ana | July 1, 2008 04:58 PM

The pigs were in hell just waiting to die to start with. Why would anyone want to abuse poor defenseless creatures that have already been handed a death sentence? Has humanity gone backeards instead of progressed in our treatment of animals. To think we are the same species as the infectious human waste who get a sadistic thrill from torturing & killing living beings. I swear I there is a God animal abusers will burn in hell along with murderers and rapists. They are as bad, if not worse because the act is cowardly, the victim is an animal that can't call police, scream, run to a neighbor for help, fight back. We must keep pushing as hard as we can to fight for them.

Posted by: Genna | July 1, 2008 05:29 PM

What is wrong with people..I don't understand where anyone learns to treat animals like they have no feeling at all. Those people should have to live in the same atmosphere they provide for these innocent animals as their jail sentence..be poked in the eyes at random and abused just because!!!

Posted by: Jessica Gallacher | July 1, 2008 05:55 PM

Do unto others including animals as you would have them do unto you

All these rednecks are is trash and trash needs to be discarded..how about sending them to Iraq and watch them run so fast becasue of the fear inside their cowardly useless bodies and souls.

Once again I say when will humans rise up to their name

These people are evil and barbaric and god only knows all too well that they will be dealt with when their time comes..As for these beautiful animals they are in heaven and we have to do all we can to stop this because i am disgusted with the human race

Posted by: r | July 1, 2008 10:12 PM

Thank goodness that some good things are happening after this horror. I can hardly wait for the day that there are no more animals murdered. This has to come to an end. The one thing that I do regret is that I could not be there to take hold of this monsters balls and cut them off with a dull knife and shove them down his throat.
But I am a person of great peace......

Peace for all animals!

Posted by: Judith | July 1, 2008 11:45 PM

hi everybody i just wanna say that every bastard that works in factory farms and slaughter houses are a bunch of heartless sick fucks no normal human being human on their right mind will do this kind of painful things to any animal period.I know I could never no matter how much money .finally a little justice but reallly the law in this cases sadly rarely does its job they dwell on it waste taxpayers money and at the end somehow justice is never served is a joke for them if only they saw it for what it really is cruelty to animals and a violation maybe we might see results like putting the bastards in freaking jail for a long time but we can only hope that peta hard work and dedication on this matter can be somehow reguarded with justice for the poor little animals that are helphless and have no voice but peta and all of us who love and care for them by refusing to make a meal out of them!!!! vegan and proud !!!!!!peace

Posted by: ROSE CORLETTO | July 2, 2008 01:42 AM

I hope PETA gets all these cruel people put away or deported. There is no excuse for such treatment. I will never buy any product from Smithfield again. Thats a promise and I will tell everyone I know to do the same.

Posted by: Brenda C. | July 2, 2008 09:43 AM

Please, let's not call people names or refer to whether they are here in the US legally or not. None of that is relevant. The hero here is the PETA investigator, of course--(s)he deserves our praise. So do the officials who filed these charges, from the police to the district attorney's office. I know this area, and it is pork country. There's a packing plant down the road from the DA's office, in fact. And virtually every road in the county has pig or turkey sheds on it. These officials are taking a stand against cruelty, and frankly, against the employer of many of the people who pay thier own government salaries (through taxes) and elect them. God bless them, and all the pigs who suffered, and still suffer, on that farm.

Posted by: Dean Ween | July 2, 2008 11:00 AM

You know, it's shit like this that make me ashamed that I'm human. Many years ago (~2001) PETA released video of abuse on another (surprise.... surprise) North Carolina pig farm. The abuse was more or less the same, in any event I decided to become vegan all those years ago. Even the video taped abuse back then was sickening. The cussing, yelling, sexual abuse, hitting and in the end; the smashing of her head with a cinder block, skinning and dismembering her while still conscious made me physically ill for a week. The big problem is that most of the dim-witted population see animals as just things, inanimate objects to be owned. Most people don't have the intellectual capacity to see these “animals” are living beings.

I will forever hold disdain for people who commit such atrocities against these innocent beings. In fact, I hold a steaming pile of shit in higher esteem than these people. Until disease forces this industry to raise flesh in-vitro, we will continue to see more of this.

Posted by: Craig | July 2, 2008 11:07 AM

Isn't it a sad state of affairs when over three hundred poeple comment on a ridiculously insensitive and self-serving singer (Jessicka Simpson; I hope her boyfriend uses her head for a football} and yet only a few comments left here. Those same half-wits who foolishly attempt to defend the defenseless (I'm talking the metaphorical HUMAN PIGS here) and who unknowingly bow before the Table of Satan and his demonic army (the invisible, what you cannot see) I'm sure don't have the courage to look at the tape. So gobble, gobble fools. Keep eating that and you won't have an ounce of wisdom left in you.

Yes, sadly I regret to have to inform the Good People this, but it is the Anti-Christ and that is what is getting into people. So vegan/veggies hold your head high, when Jesus splits the eastern sky their will be but a remenant of people that will be joining him at His Table THE TABLE OF CHRIST to have the MEAT THE WORLD KNOWS NOT OF! Hallaluyuh!!!

Posted by: Saucy | July 2, 2008 12:48 PM

I doubt that people who are capable of inflicting such pain on sentient beings, go home to be loving husbands, sons or fathers. These people should be given psychological evaluation! As far as I am concerned, they have the potential to be the next mass murderers.

Posted by: NT | July 2, 2008 01:01 PM

I would love to put those assholes through that. what comes around goes around.I wouldnt even care about them. thats so awful. great job PETA. YOU ARE MY HEROES..

Posted by: Stephanie Schwartz | July 2, 2008 02:34 PM

I appreciate the passion in all of you, every single one of you as I feel the same.

It is so wrong, and so LOW (on a spiritual level) to engage in this type of behavior. Indeed, humans come in all forms from the lowest to one of high ideals.

This kind of stuff makes me more rabid (in a nice way, though!). It makes it harder for me to tolerate people who eat meat in nice settings and refuse to see where and how it comes from.

We must speak up more often. I hope for the day when eating meat will be seen for what it is. Low class, backward, stupid and cruel.

Posted by: Soliel | July 2, 2008 02:45 PM

I happen to like bacon!

Posted by: Slaughter | July 2, 2008 04:21 PM

I'm glad PETA showed us the cruelty done to pigs!!I'm hoping that more people know about this kind of abuse towards pigs or any other animals and start doing something about it.All my prayers and thanks to all the people that help stop animal cruelty!!!May God keep you safe and fill ur lives with lots of bleesings!!!!

Posted by: maricela | July 2, 2008 05:09 PM

Cruelty charges filed?? Cruelty charges filed for ALL who take part in FACTORY FARMING!! These pigs are confined to, "WHAT" bars so tightly welded together they can't even bloody well turn around!! "TORTURE" thats an understatement!! Just to live a mere 6 months!! Factory farming (if you would call it farming) needs to be abolished and untill then KEEP UP THE GOOD FIGHT all of us animal saviors, cause it's all they got!!! Hurray for PETA!! May these "humans" rot in hell!!

Posted by: Carla | July 2, 2008 05:38 PM

the ONLY consolation that i get when i hear of animal abuse and torture and other outrageous atrocities that humans impose on animals, is that there are such AWESOME, LOVING, AMAZING people in the world who care like so many of you.

thanks to all of you for loving animals. your love gives me great comfort =)

Posted by: katie | July 2, 2008 08:25 PM

Slaughter,

I'd like to watch your head go through a MEATGRINDER!

Posted by: Saucy | July 2, 2008 09:57 PM

disgusting people cant beleive they are doing these things its inhumane.
They dont have a voice.
In silence they suffer
In lonliness they die
peta.org

Posted by: c | July 3, 2008 12:50 AM

hey slaughter hope you enjoy your heart disease!!!
good on the peta investigators there is no way i could stay calm and report on this abuse.
i have to say that i grew up on a factory farm in australia and was taught that all that happened there was natural and normal. since then it has closed down. i never witnessed any abuse as such but i am more than aware of how cruel and wrong this situation was. Thanks to peta i am now a vegetarian and i'm spreading the word. if i can see the light than there is hope for the rest of the world. keep up the good work PETA. i will never eat another animal again!!!!

Posted by: nicole | July 3, 2008 04:39 AM

I am continuously amazed in these days of sensitivity that it is still acceptable to refer to southern white males as rednecks. For so called peaceful people you guys sure are a vengeful lot. This economically poor abbatoir worker has lost his absolutely horrible job. He has been punished.

Posted by: Christopher Cochran MD | July 3, 2008 10:08 AM

CC: No--loss of a job is not nearly punishment enough for this man or anyone like him. People who abuse animals (including those who hunt them and experiment on them) have psychological problems. We, as a society, need to recognize that and stop allowing that sort of behavior. It is no mistake that those who abuse animals (the small and defenseless) also abuse humans. Society needs to stop accepting hunting as someone's "way of life" and to stop accepting animal experimentation as a "necessary evil." Neither activity, nor any other activity that allows a sadist to indulge his propensities, should be condoned. If you feel the need to abuse animals, you really should get psychological help. If you are truly a doctor, I'm sure you can find a reputable psychologist or psychiatrist to help you figure out why your self-esteem is so low that you need to mistreat the weak and defenseless in order to feel good about yourself.

Posted by: Antigone1000 | July 3, 2008 12:50 PM

CC: Oh--and what is the pc term for your people these days?? "White trash?"

Posted by: Antigone1000 | July 3, 2008 12:51 PM

It makes me sick to be part of the human race that tortures such beautiful and peaceful animals.

Posted by: Mitchell | July 3, 2008 02:32 PM

Hey, everybody, let's not jump to conclusions about all factory farm workers. I know many of them are messed up and these particular workers certainly deserve to be punished for what they have done, but the main problem here is the industry.

To anybody wanting more information, I recommend "Slaughterhouse" by Gail Eisnitz. It is tough to get through for an animal lover, but eye-opening and well worth it. You will learn just how scary the industry is, worker injustice, and that some workers hate what they have done just as much as we do.

Posted by: AM | July 3, 2008 02:38 PM

In trying to reach the people
who continue to mistreat the
creatures they are killing for the food market, would it help to point out that when fear is created in the handling, that there is some evidence that the chemicals released into the meat are poisonous to humans.

Posted by: Judith | July 3, 2008 06:17 PM

Judith: I really hope you're right......

Posted by: Antigone1000 | July 4, 2008 01:22 AM

This makes me totally disgusted to be a part of the human race. If we were not here the whole planet would be fine. What right do humans have to think they can treat animals this way. Peta you're amazing thanks to you I am also a vegetarian. I have been an animal lover my whole life, never really liked eating meat but now it just disgusts me.Wish animals could voice how they feel. One day that song "cows with guns" just may happen. Wouldn't that be awsome cause this cruelty has to STOP.......................

Posted by: Kim | July 4, 2008 01:30 AM

Antigone,
I am grateful that an elitist such as is are so concerned about my self-esteem. Wild animals are neither weak or defenseless, but given your lack of insight, I am not suprised you said that. You do not know anything about me, and likely nothing about hunting, so your comments are ignorant on the highest level. I hope you have a tall mountain (though, you would prefer a tall building) to preach your socialist, collectivist garbage to no one, because that is who is listening.

Posted by: Christopher Cochran MD | July 4, 2008 09:19 AM

I sit here today in shock and awe of the horrific cruelty and inhumane treatment of our gifts from God.
Our wonderful Animals.
A few years ago a friend of mine shared with me some information and a couple of video's. (Pigs and chickens) At first I sat there horrified and in disbelief of what I was seeing... Then I sat there with a heart so broken, I felt as if I could not breath. Then I sat there Angry...
At that moment a flame started to burn inside of me... By the next day that flame had become a bonfire!

And that fire brings me to all of you. Separate we are a signal flame, but together we all are a giant Bonfire, and we need to keep setting this subject on fire, continue to get peoples attention. Wake up America and show everyone whats going on right under there nose. We need to stop Animal cruelty! Stop cruelty and abuse in all forms... To do this sometimes we must look at things that make our mouths drop open, and make us suck in our breath and look in horror or look away, because we cannot look.. This is happening each and everyday. Thousands of our gifts from God die for man and Woman's game, for there sport and worst of all for men and
Women's consumption. How long will this horrific abuse go on? How long have people looked away and been silent.. Too long.. We must continue to take a stand and make it right. Its the only thing.... Honesty its the right and human thing to do.
And that is why I love PEDA, because this is what they do each and everyday they stand up and fight for these innocent, loving and gentle animals.
Thanks all for listening.

Posted by: Ruthie | July 4, 2008 11:48 AM

Antigone, "white trash" is in the same category as "nigger" "chink" "spic"
"wop" "kike" "gook" et al. So if your socialist collective allows those words, then I guess "white trash" is ok. You may be smarter than me (huh?) and I may be a barbarian, but you are a elitist BIGOT. Doesn't Antigone commit suicide? Perhaps if you are going to pick an psuedonym from antiquity it should be Narcissus.

Posted by: Christopher Cochran MD | July 4, 2008 12:06 PM

CC: Animals, like humans, are absolutely weak and defenseless against a cowardly human who has a shotgun and a more-than-safe distance on his side. If you want a fair fight, why don't you go into the woods unarmed and take your chances then? I know enough about you because I have met men like you before. You think you prove your manliness by mistreating animals. I have as much respect for you, and those like you, as I have for pedophiles, child abusers, and wife beaters--anyone who preys on those less defenseless. Really--why can't you participate in a fair fight??

Posted by: Antigone1000 | July 4, 2008 05:03 PM

After reading about the abuse and torture of these pigs I felt sick to the pit of my stomach and cried my heart out. I give praise to PETA for their work in exposing this farm and for all the work they continually do in exposing cruelty to all animals and I too also pray that God protects them in the dangerous cases and blesses them in their every day lives. Amen to you Saucy!! lets not forget though that although these people deserve some of the above mentioned punishments and things done to them as they did to those poor animals, that God will judge them and they WILL be sorry for eternity - Also, remember we do not wrestle against flesh but against spirit and as the constitution (Bible) says in the end days the wicked will become more wicked - I pray for their convictions and justice for the animals who suffered whilst in the here and now, but punishment and the wrath of God on judgement day will be thousand times worse for them.

Posted by: Heavenly1 | July 5, 2008 07:34 AM

Dr C., we do not know whether the man charged is poor, or if he disliked his job, or if he lost it. If he was poor, and hated his job, and did lose it, yes, that would be a private form of punishment, and appropriate I'd think. But, he's charged not with just objectionable, perhaps unprofessional conduct (meriting termination) but a crime against society. Actually, six crimes against society. To be so charged is not wrong, in your mind, is it? Surely individuals who commit acts which are unprofessional and allegedly criminal stand to be disciplined both in the work place and tried in the judicial system, no?

Posted by: Dean Ween | July 6, 2008 08:13 AM

Antigone, I have already proven my manliness by providing for my family every day. I have no self-esteem issues that are sated by hunting. I have no quarrel with animals, therefore I do not fight animals, save the groundhog that eats my sweet potato vines. I hunt with the tools that evolution has provided me. And by the way, I need your respect about as much as I need another hole in my head.

Posted by: Christopher Cochran MD | July 6, 2008 09:16 AM

Hey Dr. Chris,

I certainly hope you're not judging all of us on the comments found on THE INTERNET! Most of the people hurling insults around here are not animal professionals!!

I've worked with many, many people in this line of work - not one would use the word redneck or be rude to you in any way.

If by "you guys" you mean the people commenting here, I agree somewhat, although you're ignoring people like Lynda, Holly, myself etc who are very respectful at all times.

But please, before you judge go out and talk face to face with vet techs, wildlife rehabbers, animal shelter workers and endangered species folks. They can give you the real story of animal rights.

;)

Posted by: Maya, C.V.T. | July 6, 2008 11:02 AM

By the way, sorry to sound like a broken record, but the word "defenseless" really irks me. If we want to talk animal rights, we need to drop that word.

I grew up in the country, many of our neighbors were farmers. Have you ever been bitten by a pig? They are not defenseless!!

Now I agree, keeping them in factory farming conditions renders them helpless, but is also evil and disgusting. HOWEVER, we must not think of pigs as quivering piles of goo.

These animals are strong, smart and tough. Using the word "defenseless" degrades their dignity. Every pig deserves to be looked at with respect. Their situation may be defenseless, but they are not!

Most factory farmers will say they feel sorry for the animals - but if they learn to respect the pigs, they will not want to torture and kill them! Let's give pigs the respectful language they deserve.

;)

Posted by: Maya, C.V.T. | July 6, 2008 11:08 AM

CC: You don't need MY respect, you need your own. Why don't you work on that?

Posted by: Antigone1000 | July 6, 2008 10:11 PM

Maya: You can't give anyone the real story on Animal Rights because you are not an AR advocate. You are an Animal Welfare advocate. Stop claiming to be AR because you are insult to the movement and anyone who advocates and tries to advance AR.

Posted by: Antigone1000 | July 6, 2008 10:18 PM

Christopher C
Anyone who posts here often knows that the term 'redneck' particularly offends you. But you, too, know that your continual reminder of the merits of hunting offend many of us. There were plenty of insults from both sides.
And actually, I do listen to Antigone-one of my favorite posters here.

Posted by: lynda downie | July 7, 2008 01:32 AM

LOL yes Antigone, just because I have 15 years experience working with animals in the veterinary and wildlife professions, gee obviously I know nothing about animal rights.

I do know one thing about people like you, though. Lots of talk and no action.

Posted by: Maya, CVT | July 7, 2008 12:08 PM

Maya,
Antigone enjoys labels, it's all part of the collective mentality. Dealing with laypersons is an important part of being an expert in a subject. The trouble starts when a layperson has poor insight to their own ignorance and does not realize they are a layperson..

Posted by: Christopher Cochran MD | July 7, 2008 04:14 PM

I am sick to my stomach. I hope these people burn in hell, those motherfuckers.

Posted by: Sandra | July 7, 2008 04:20 PM

Maya: You can fool people on this blog, but true AR people know exactly what you are. All you do is condone mistreatment of animals and ensure that no direct or indirect abusers lose any sleep at nite over their mistreatment of animals. But, guess who DOES lose sleep at nite, Maya?? The pig in the slaughterhouse who is destined to be abused until he dies a horrific death. The elephant in the circus routinely beaten and forced to perform, no matter how ill. The monkey in the lab with a hole drilled in his head for no good reason. You know who else loses sleep?? The true AR people who risk their lives and liberties to help these animals. So-- you are entitled to your opinions, but you have a lot of nerve to pass yourself off as an AR person. Your 15 years of experience mean absolutely nothing if they have been spent mainaining the status quo that exists.

Posted by: Antigone1000 | July 7, 2008 11:32 PM

CC: When it comes to AR, both you and Maya are the laypeople, as neither of you knows anything about the movement.

You might want to do some research, however, into some of the studies that show a link between hunting (and other forms of animal abuse) and child abuse. The fact is that a sadist is a sadist is a sadist. Society needs to start punishing the act instead of choice of victim.

Posted by: Antigone1000 | July 7, 2008 11:37 PM

Lynda: Thanks. It is nice to see that this board does have some true AR advocates!!

Posted by: Antigone1000 | July 7, 2008 11:41 PM

I did the research and their is absolutely no link between hunting and child abuse. When it comes to AR, whatever that is, I couldn't care less. What I do know about is wildlife. Oh, and apparently I have become somewhat of an expert on growing carrots. I harvested forty pounds of organic carrots today!!

Posted by: Christopher Cochran MD | July 8, 2008 09:29 AM

CC: Clearly, you have done NO research. In two minutes, I found one relevant article:

http://www.vachss.com/guest_dispatches/ascione_1.html

I also read one the other day specifically about the link between hunting and abuse. (If I can find it again, I'll be happy to reference it for you.)

I absolutely believe you when you say you couldn't care less. Why would you?? You are one of the fortunate abusers whose choice of victim is currently legal. One day, that will not be the case then people like you will have to face the fact that you have psychological problems that must be addressed appropriately or you will face the legal consequences of your actions.

Posted by: antigone1000 | July 8, 2008 02:11 PM

Here's the link on hunting and child abuse:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yz3cyfeX2Kk

As you will see from both articles, there is not nearly enough research into the connection between animal abuse and human abuse. I, personally, think there needs be NO connection as we should punish CRUELTY, not CHOICE OF VICTIM. Maybe, someday, we will recognize that anyone who intentionally inflicts suffering on one who is both innocent and defenseless deserves imprisonment or death for those crimes, regardless of species of victim.

Posted by: Antigone1000 | July 8, 2008 02:24 PM

Antigone:
The first article doesn't even mention hunting and the second is some made up by who knows who video with some wild far reaching unproven or researched connection. Credibility=0 With people like you around, I feel like hunting is pretty safe. The only psycological problem I have is that I have wasted entirely too much time debating this issue with a mental midget such as yourself.

Posted by: Christopher Cochran MD | July 8, 2008 04:22 PM

Chris Cochran,

You are an MD? I hope not in my hometown because I would never go to you and would definitely let others know how you feel about life!

Posted by: Elizabeth | July 8, 2008 05:36 PM

CC: Of course--resort to name calling because you have no valid response. As I told you, the first article is NOT specific to hunting, but does give info about the link between animal and human abuse. As we research this area further, we will begin to take animal abuse more seriously. Think how many human lives would have been spared if Jeffrey Dahmer or Ted Bundy had been identified as sadists when they mistreated animals. If you are willing to mistreat a defenseless creature, YOU are the mental midget. The fact that you then brag about doing it on a board posted by an organization that advocates AR just goes to show how mentally deficient you really are.

Posted by: Antigone1000 | July 8, 2008 05:46 PM

I try not watch this kind of stuff cause i have such a strong heart for animals. But helps me understand how sick these places are and the people that work there. People like this will met there maker one day and i hope they rott in hell. You have to be demoniac to inflict pain and torture to such helpless animals. Imagine how they treat their families. I love being a vegt and videos help me spread the word to others to know the knowledge of how really fuck up our society is.

Posted by: tanya | July 9, 2008 10:19 AM

Generally when I post here, I collapse animal welfare and rights into simply 'animal rights' for the sake of argument.
But as Antigone points out, there is an important distinction between animal rights and welfare. A welfarist would approve of an organic farmer, for example, who humanely raises animals for their meat, eggs, milk,etc. A rightist would not. No matter how well treated, the animals are still the property of the farmer.
An ARA recognizes animals as individuals with inherent rights no less binding than human rights. An ARA, for example, would be a vegan because he or she rejects all uses of animals.
And Christopher, if you 'couldn't care less about AR', why do you come to this site, honestly?

Posted by: lynda downie | July 12, 2008 12:01 AM

lynda,
Of course I care about animals and their rights; it's movements and the brainless sheep among them that make me ill.

Posted by: Christopher Cochran MD | July 13, 2008 09:09 PM

CC: So you think we should all sit around by ourselves and think good thoughts about animals in an effort to improve their situation??? You probably don't know much about history, but in all history (that of the US and anywhere else in human civilization) it has taken activitists to bring about change. Change doesn't just happen because you want it to--you have to MAKE it happen. The selfish and greedy never willingly give anything up.

Also--just to correct your comment. Sheep are NOT brainless. I can't, however, vouch for the anti-animal faction that finds posting on a website where no one really takes them seriously to be the best use of their time.

Posted by: Antigone1000 | July 15, 2008 10:23 AM

Christopher
I dont' like the idea of just jumping, unthinkingly, on the bandwagon of whatever is popular either. I was passionate about animals before Peta was formed. But I'm grateful to have a gathering of like-minded people.
It could be said that your own profession grew out of a movement of ind'ls, concerned with human health, who practised a certain kind of medicine(Hippocratic).

Posted by: lynda downie | July 15, 2008 09:23 PM

Lynda,

Hey there, long time no see! You know I think we almost always see eye to eye, so I hope you don't mind if I play devil's advocate just this once! ;)

Although it is really just silly semantics, I have to tell you that I have worked with "animal welfarisits" in vet clinics, animal shelters, wildlife rehab facilities, etc, and they beleive most of the same things.

To me and many others, the only thing different from animal rights and animal welfarists, is that an animal welfarist refuses to use violence, insults or other degrading or demoralizing tactics to protect animals.

We beleive in the intrinsic nature of life, that no death is acceptable except that which occurs naturally.

For example, I would never approve of an organic cattle farm, but if there were a factory farm and PETA changed it to a humane certified farm where there were far fewer cows and they were outdoors in the sunshine and treated the same way a well cared for horse would be treated, that would be a good thing.

In fact, you may notice that PETA does try to change factory farms in this way.

I would never be happy about a farm where cows are slaughtered, but there are many out there that we can't stop unless we go around committing arson and murdering all the farmers, plus we'd have to murder everyone who eats meat!!

Some people on the PETA blog who call themselves animal rights activists actually seem to think that assault and murder are perfectly acceptable. That's where the difference comes in.

I am a welfarist - I don't even kill insects. All life is sacred, even more sacred than my own life. But a welfarist is committed to nonviolence and not behaving like a criminal.

Obviously, feel free to let me know what you think!!

:) xx Maya

Posted by: Maya, CVT | July 16, 2008 12:00 PM

Hi Maya
Thanks for your comments. I have to disagree that the AR/Welfare distinction is just semantic. It's a real difference in how someone sees animals. An ARA recognizes animals as ind'ls whose rights to life and liberty are morally binding, just as in the case of human persons.
We wouldn't think it simply a matter of personal choice whether or not to use a human as food, etc. For an ARA, the same applies equally to animals. It's a rights violation to use animals as we currently do.
To recognize animals as rights bearers means to abolish all animal exploitation in our lives. The simplest way to do that is to become a vegan. (I know you're tired of hearing that).
You're right, Peta does approve of welfare reform as a necessary step toward complete animal liberation. And though I, too, celebrate the small victories (the welfarist in me), there's a compelling argument that it simply mitigates abuse and may increase the social acceptance of animal exploitation. (Because people think animals are 'humanely' treated it's ok to continue to use them.)
Personally, I think your uncompromising, bold stand for feral cats is right in line with the AR philosophy.

Posted by: lynda downie | July 17, 2008 02:38 AM

Hi again, Maya
I'm not sure which ARAs you're referring to who are insulting and rude. I know you and Antigone had some disagreements. Personally, though, I find Antigone to be an exceptionally insightful and dedicated animal advocate.
The animals are depending on us, let's all bring our skills to further their liberation.
Peace, Maya

Posted by: lynda downie | July 17, 2008 04:24 AM

Hey again Lynda!

;) Thank you for your kind words. I certainly don't think of Antigone as someone who acts inappropriately.

The people I refer to are those who commit arson, assault or are exceptionally rude or violent.

PETA's throwing pies at people and dumping manure outside of Gordon Ramsay's restaurant is mostly what I'm talking about.

Just as bad, in my opinion, is referring to women as whores or bitches. Or any other misogynyst acts. I've even seen the "N" word used referring to blacks, when dogfighting was discussed.

These are the people who call themselves animal rights activists, but made my job as a shelter worker and veterinary nurse a living hell.

Trying to educate people was hard if not impossible, when the saw me through the lens of the most "memorable" offensive PETA campaigns.

I guess we could argue that these people are bad seeds, like those who call themselves Chrisians while burning crosses on black people's lawns.

But I have not seen ARAs speak out against these violent, racist and mysogynyst acts. That silence reads to me as approval.

That's why I call myself an animal welfarist, but I would never approve of an animal's suffering or death for any reason.

You''re a sweetie for listening, and you should visit my blog sometime, friend! Vox is really fun if you have the time to join.

;)

http://maya857.vox.com/

Posted by: Maya, CVT | July 17, 2008 11:00 AM

Okay--I have to say. Arson, assault, and excessive rudeness pale in comparison to what these people fight against. While you may not choose to participate in such acts yourself, you should not call the activists the violent ones in light of what those they oppose are doing to animals in labs. If you have any question, I would be more than happy to point you to some video. If you want to criticize the activists for being violent, you need to also criticize their rivals.

Also--I have never met an AR activist that was racist or sexist. True AR activists understand that race and sex and sexual orientation AND SPECIES are irrelevant characteristics. That is why they are AR people.

Posted by: Antigone1000 | July 17, 2008 06:56 PM

I agree with you, Antigone.

I guess what I'm saying is this: let me give you a hypothetical question, what would someone have to say to make you wear fur or eat meat? How could they convince you?

The answer is, no one could convince you to do that. But keep in mind, most people who eat meat feel the same way. They are SLIGHTLY more likely to be convinced, because most people don't think it's immoral to GIVE UP meat.

When we talk to these people, we have to be as saavy as the evil Pharma and meat companies. We have to convince people, and be exceptional communicators. That's how big corporations can sell glasses to a blind man.

We have to be just as smart about how we communicate to the world.

Posted by: Maya, CVT | July 18, 2008 12:31 PM

Hi Maya
Thanks for your kind words to me, as well.
Antigone has responded to your concerns about AR activists who use more forceful methods to defend animals in a more thorough, precise way than I can.
I just want to add that, as a hypothetical, if you saw someone with a stick beating a child, would you think it wrong to grab the stick and break it? That's how these activists feel about the property they admit to vandalizing. They do no harm to any animals(non-humans and humans). They damage the machinery of abuse.
I agree we have to be smart, but there are people who will be open to Antigone's direct and honest approach.

Posted by: lynda downie | July 18, 2008 04:51 PM

Maya,
I realized I'd given you a poor analogy-there isn't comparable financial investment between a stick and say, a fur farm.
But if the abuser was shooting children in a locked school,for example, would any property damage be more important than rescuing the children?
That's how these activists feel about the dismantling of instruments of torture.
Thanks for listening.

Posted by: lynda downie | July 18, 2008 06:20 PM

Maya: The animals don't have an eternity to sit around and wait for everyone to come around--they are suffering and dying NOW. How many were killed today, do you think?? Sometimes, you need a violent revolution to make a change (e.g., the Civil War with slavery). These AR activists are the same people that would have helped slaves escape years ago. Unfortunately, violence begets violence. The difference is the ALF violence is highly publicized and the vivisector violence is carefully concealed. Hiding it from public view does not make it go away for the animals, however.

Posted by: Antigone1000 | July 18, 2008 07:01 PM

Hi again Lynda! ;)

I fully agree with your idea as far as breaking down a door to save animals from a lab, or stealing animals from a zoo. That's one thing that I have no problem with.

Arson is entirely another. Anyone who thinks arson is no big deal should visit a burn unit pronto. I'm not kidding.

Posted by: Maya, C.V.T. | July 20, 2008 06:35 PM

Maya: It sounds as though you are implying that people have been harmed by the ALF, which is absolutely not the case. No ALF activity has resulted in one single human death (of a vivisector) to date, although there have been several deaths on the activist side, unfortunately. When it comes to the ALF, they have shown nothing but respect for all life and taking no life is actually part of their motto. We are talking only about PROPERTY DAMAGE. Please do not imply otherwise.

Posted by: Antigone1000 | July 21, 2008 11:47 AM

Hi Antigone,

Well, sweetheart, that's the problem with assuming, isn't it? You know what they say about assuming....

I wasn't implying anything. If I was referring to the ALF, I would have said this: (pay close attention, now):

"I'm talking about the ALF"

See how easy that is? I don't play games, Antigone. If I meant the ALF, I would have said the ALF.

I was simply mentioning to my buddy Lynda that there are some things that are acceptable and some that are not.

Acceptable: breaking doors or windows to rescue animals. Peaceful protests (stand ins, getting arrested for refusing to leave a property, etc)

Not acceptable: Throwing things at people, assault, violence of any sort, destruction of property (besides what I mentioned), arson, racial or mysogynist comments, insults.

Many individuals and organizations have done the above actions. My comments were to address anyone who HAS done these things.

Posted by: Maya, C.V.T. | July 21, 2008 02:14 PM

Okay, Maya, refer me to ONE instance where ANY animal group has committed arson that has resulted in human injury/death. Just ONE, by ANY group. If you can't do that, then stop equating AR arson activities with people in burn units.

Posted by: Antigone1000 | July 21, 2008 07:01 PM

Antigone,

Sorry but I'm not going to spend my day digging up articles.

Even if no human death has happened yet, you don't have a crystal ball to say it can never happen.

The fact is, arson is dangerous, not only to humans but it can also start wildfires. Ever hear of those? Dozens of wild animals die in arson-related wildfires every year.

Posted by: Maya, CVT | July 22, 2008 12:01 PM

ps especially arson of ski lodges, mostly by environmental arsonists.

Posted by: Maya, CVT | July 22, 2008 12:03 PM

Maya: No one has yet been put in jail for what might happen. You need to stop being irresponsible in your postings. You have no facts to back up your implication that AR arsons (or any other AR action) has caused any human injury, so don't spread those kinds of rumors.

Posted by: Antigone1000 | July 22, 2008 08:32 PM

I agree Maya,arson,for example, is very risky and potentially dangerous to human life. That's why ARAs who use these tactics take precautions to ensure no humans are hurt. Antigone is right, no AR actions have killed any humans, though activists have been killed by animal abusers. But true, the danger is always there.
I don't condone violence but I understand and share their passion. As one activist said, if it were my son behind those walls, NOTHING would stop me from getting him out.
When violence is used to free humans (ie. shooting a defiant aggressor) most nod their approval but bristle when it's used to free animals. Double standard?
Thanks for hearing me out.

Posted by: lynda downie | July 24, 2008 03:29 PM

I think I know what kind of person you are, Lynda, and if you were rescuing animals out of a lab, for example, I bet you would have enough common sense before you would just torch the place.

We can all discuss this on a blog, but when push comes to shove you know that a fire's path of travel cannot be predicted after you set it. That's why you would be unwilling to risk the lives of people, wildlife or forests just to burn the building down after the animals were all safe.

;) Peace, sister!

Posted by: Maya, C.V.T. | July 24, 2008 06:04 PM

Maya: The people who take these actions know exactly what they are doing. Otherwise, there would be a body count.

TO ANYONE WHO WANTS TO LEARN ABOUT THE AR ACTIVISTS (like the ALF, for example): please research on the web and do not listen to Maya. She does not have a clue about the AR movement.

Posted by: Antigone1000 | July 25, 2008 11:36 AM

Antigone's right, I'm clueless.

I'm just a lowly certified veterinary nurse, licensed rehabilitator, and former animal shelter worker. I've only been an animal care professional for 19 years.

And oh yeah, I'm earning a graduate degree in conservation biology.

And I've only been a vegetarian for 20 years. Pathetic! LOL

Posted by: Maya, CVT | July 25, 2008 05:53 PM

Hi Maya,lynda,and Antigone,

Its a beautiful night here. I do hope you are enjoying your evening and weekend.
We all have different ways of working for and thinking about animal rights and animal welfare and how we can help our animal friends.
Your debate is a good one, and I am learning for each of you.
Some of us are exstream some are not, but we are all working for the same end result.

So lets all keep up the good work and remain friends, and remember, we are really each of us on the same side, the side of the animals.

Great Debate! Great Work!
Keep it up!

Go Vegan, and if you do that and nothing else you are working for both animal rights and animal welfare...

Posted by: Holly | July 25, 2008 10:43 PM

Maya you are attacking the messenger and living in a land of make-believe, not being thoughtful or raising relevant points. The disinformation that you spew is absurd the backtracking obscene and leaves me wondering. Your slick diatribe and illogical conclusions seem to be a potent and a sorry statement on the current state of affairs for animal rights activists. Any step at all in the right direction is a good step and is to be recognized and applauded for the ultimate good that will be accomplished. Not routinely criticized for pretended faults and ignorant "fly by night" viewpoints.

Posted by: vegancoin | July 25, 2008 11:29 PM

Some times when people become angry, they lash out with name calling which makes them feel better (but only for the moment)because it is a way of releasing anger. Its better than hitting, but in the long run, the name calling does not help in a debate to support a cause. It looses respect, just as swearing does.

It is hard not to lash out when angry, but lets not resort to name calling that hurts feelings beyond the person you are lashing out at.

Our job is to be respectful to others and set a good example, even when we are angry...

In saving animals we need to hold our selves at higher standard and be respectful, even in anger for we are peaceful people looking for peace for our animal friends.

Go Vegan, Don't let your body become a grave yard for farm animals for that is what your body becomes when you eat meat.
Spooky!

Posted by: Holly | July 26, 2008 10:11 AM

LOL yes, Antigone is right. I'm just a certified veterinary nurse, wildlife rehabilitator and formere animal shelter worker. And I'm earning my master's degree in biology.

I'm sure Antigone must have a PhD or something. LOL

Posted by: Maya, CVT | July 28, 2008 11:31 AM

As always, Holly, you are a light of positive thoughts. How do you do it? I think you're a great friend, and I hope to see you more on Vox!!

Thank you for the reminder to always be positive and respectful. I value your words!

Peace, sister!

Posted by: Maya, CVT | July 28, 2008 02:33 PM

Maya:I'm an attorney, thanks for asking. I'm sure you know all about what you do on a daily basis but you nothing about AR or the struggle that people go through to achieve AR since you are AW and more than happy to maintain the status quo. I have said before you can certainly voice your opinion, but don't try to sell it as AR or act as though you know things about the AR movement when you do not. There are good people in jail just because people like you try to breed fear into other people by spreading lies. Stick to what you know.

Posted by: Antigone1000 | July 29, 2008 09:59 PM

I do think we need to be careful when we talk about things like
Controlled-Atmosphere Killing.
Certified Humane Raised.
“cage-free” eggs
Free range.
Organic Meat Humanely raised and slaughtered.
and the list goes on. There is danger for the animals in each of these.

The problem is all of these labels bring (some) people back to eating meat, and feeling less guilt doing it. So for the animal it may mean a better life for some, but their life is still snatched out of them in the end, and no matter what they tell you with their lable, there is suffering.

The way I see it, the very best way to support both animal rights and animal welfare for farm animals is to eat a totally VEGAN diet, and live a totally VEGAN life style.

Go VEGAN save up to 100 farm animals per person per year...

Posted by: Holly | July 30, 2008 01:25 PM

"There are good people in jail just because people like you try to breed fear into other people by spreading lies."
Come on, thats leading, misconstrued and there is no basis in fact.

Posted by: Holly | July 30, 2008 08:46 PM

Holly: No idea how you can make THAT claim seeing I gave absolutely NO details, but okay--maybe you're psychic. Anyway--for details, why don't you read up on the AETA and SHAC 7?? The details are out there, you really should educate yourself.

Posted by: Antigone1000 | August 4, 2008 11:51 AM

http://www.wibw.com/nationalnews/headlines/26241914.html

???

I think it is better to protest with out violence.

philosophical debate, legal development, and direct action with out violence.

I understand the anger, but not the approach.

Two wrongs dont make a right...

Go Vegan...

Posted by: Holly | August 4, 2008 04:00 PM

Holly: Easy for you to say, you are not the one in a cage being experimented on. As for two wrongs not making a right--I would say in fact it is one HUGE wrong (animal cruelty) and one MINOR wrong (property damage) and, at the end of the day, saving the life of the animal(s) takes precedence over protecting property. It amazes me that so many so-called AR advocates seem to have no sense of urgency, despite the number of lives hanging in the balance every day.

Posted by: Antigone1000 | August 4, 2008 06:36 PM

No, I am not sitting in the cage waiting for rescue.
But I don’t see how the violence stops the abuse.
Like in Santa Cruz, do you really think the violence of this past weekend will stop the lab from doing experiments?
Today is no different for the animal, for him or her nothing has changed as a result of this past weekend.
And
For every scientist that steps down out of fear, another is waiting in the wings to take his or her place.
I realize that for the animals it is a desperate situation. But I think until science figures out another way to get the results they are looking for with out the use of our animal friends, they won’t stop using the animals.
I think Public awareness is the answer. When the public "gets it" and understands that animals feel just as we do will they force the science world to find other ways.
I also think that is the same truth for farm animals who also suffer each and every day and die an awful death in the end as a result of human greed and lust for their flesh.
Only when the public sees the animals as living feeling creatures who are like us will the great suffering stop.
I know you think that my approach is not enough, but for me it’s the only way I can help in the movement for animal liberation. I will Go Vegan, Live Vegan and talk my head off about our animal friends who feel pain and loneliness just as we do.

Go Vegan
Save Up To 100 Farm Animals Per Person Per Year.

Don’t let your body become a graveyard for farm animals.

Live Vegan…

Posted by: Holly | August 5, 2008 08:44 AM

Change the treatment of all animals through awareness of the great suffering they endure.

Make it so public that people will beg to change the laws to protect all animals from the farm to the lab and every where in between.

Teach our children kindness so they are effected by suffering and not numb to it.

Posted by: Holly | August 5, 2008 08:52 AM

Holly: Great sentiments, but how many animals die while you put your plan into action??? You may not feel comfortable participating in direct action, but why criticize those who do?? They may not change things overnite for ALL animals, but they surely change things for those they liberate. I really think that property damage is a minor price to be paid by those who conduct the kinds of experimentation on animals that is constantly being exposed. If the AR groups were to lower themselves to the standards of the vivisectionists, most of the vivisectionists would be dead by now.

Posted by: Antigone1000 | August 5, 2008 11:13 PM