How exactly does some crappy "Sprink Break" type trip to Mexico qualify as religion?

In some places, chuch youth groups actually do something GOOD FOR THE WORLD like volunteer, like at an animal shelter or cleaning up a river.

Instead of act greedy and stupid.

Posted by: kelly | May 14, 2008 01:09 PM

Sorry, but I see this as no different than the thousands of schools that hold barbecues as fundraisers. Why target this one church?

Posted by: rathernotsay | May 14, 2008 01:48 PM

Well put together letter!! Lets hope they don't lose the real picture here! To me being Christian also, I find having an outing like this a bit offensive!!

Posted by: Carla | May 14, 2008 03:47 PM

There certainly seems to be a disconnect there. Mexican cuisine features lots of delicious veg offerings and nobody gets hurt.

I'm not Jewish, but I ordered the free documentary DVD from them—"A Sacred Duty."

http://www.jewishveg.com/feedback.html

The doc was so good, I just had to send them ten bucks. Considering what Agriprocessors is up to, I implore the good Jewish blog-readers to order a free copy.

Posted by: Mike Quinoa | May 14, 2008 05:40 PM

Great letter...

I think I'm gonna have alot of time on my hands here for a while (health-like issue) and I think I may start to bug my parish about that who "Pro-Life is Pro ALL Life" thing...

And a thought, how is having a pig roast *Mexican" anyway??

Posted by: Tamara | May 14, 2008 08:16 PM

I to as a practicing christian believe that we are to show compassion to all of God's creatures. I too look forward to the day that we are restored to a state of perfection like the Garden of Eden where all creatures are vegitarion and there is no more shedding of blood and killing beautiful animals ruthlessly so one can fill his belly.

Posted by: michael sheehy | May 14, 2008 10:25 PM

Are you kidding me? I am a Christian, since when do you need to be a Vegetarian to be "Christ-like?" Do all people who eat meat go to hell in accordance with your misinterpretation of God's word? Leave the kids and the church alone and grind your axe somewhere else. You should be more worried about leading people to Christ than the menu at a church fund raiser. I wonder what you would have done in Biblical times when people spilt the blood of animals over an alter as an offering to God. Get a life.

Posted by: Mark | May 14, 2008 10:55 PM

A lot of church groups go to Mexico and other countries to perform charitable acts like build houses, schools and churches or maybe to build water supplies. Why are you guys so anti-christian?

Posted by: Jim | May 14, 2008 11:02 PM

I just checked the church's website. The trip to Mexico is a mission trip, not something that will show up on a girls gone wild video. Sorry to disappoint you guys.

Posted by: Jim | May 14, 2008 11:08 PM

PETA is way ahead of its time - that's the problem.

We really should all be vegan, factory farming really is comparable with the Holocaust, etc., but it will be a few decades, or lifetimes, until the rest of us catch up with you.

Meanwhile, just keep fighting the good fight.

Posted by: Mark | May 15, 2008 12:40 AM

I wish this letter was sent to every Christian Church across the country!

Posted by: Kristen | May 15, 2008 07:39 AM

The problem with your claim that eating meat is un-Christian or not biblical is that meat eating is in the Bible. In the New Testament, Peter had a dream in which God showed him animals that were both "clean" and "unclean" to eat under Old Testament law commanded Peter to eat even the unclean ones. It was a symbolic dream and Peter wasn't actually eating, but God still used the idea of eating meat to get his point across. In Romans, Paul talks about eating meat that has been sacrificed to idols. (Animals used in sacrifices to idols would be sold for food, and early Christians had controversy over whether it was wrong to eat that meat not because it was meat but because it had been used in rituals they didn't agree with.) He makes the point that it is not inherently wrong to eat such meat-- Paul said that the meat shouldn't be eaten if it would cause another person to stumble by seeing that example, but otherwise, the meat was okay. That passage in Romans indicates that while other Christians should be sensitive to your convictions about not eating meat, there isn't anything automatically wrong and unbiblical with them eating meat.

Posted by: Mabel | May 15, 2008 10:00 AM

By the way, Kelly's automatic assumption that the kids were going to Mexico for fun and to be selfish just reveals a judgmental nature. Instead of considering that maybe they had a useful goal, she immediately condemned them as greedy and stupid. What's stupid is thinking you know everything about a situation and can judge some kids when in reality they are raising money and giving up their vacation time to go help people in an area where help is needed.

Posted by: Mabel | May 15, 2008 10:06 AM

Mark, so true!! Thank-you!

Posted by: Carla | May 15, 2008 10:25 AM

There was one part in Jacks statement that hits the nail on the head!
"Cuz that’s kind of the whole point of the New Testament, the way I see it."
The way he sees it! Not me, and most likely 95% or Christians! The Bible can interpreted many ways over. If we are true followers of the New Testament, then everybody would be anti-gay, and pro slavery. Which I am not. However, I have seen the bible misquoted, in my view, so many times that would support both of these things!
Many of you belive that animals have souls and feelings like ours. You would have to trivialize the Holocaust and to equate a Jewish victim to a chicken!
You see, nobody truely knows what we are suppose to get from the Bible or Gods word. That is why there are so many different congrigations in Christianity alone! We all fundamentaly believe in the teaching of Jesus, however we all drew different conclusions about the subtlties of the teachings!

Posted by: Kurt K | May 15, 2008 10:53 AM

Kelly, it's called "Mission Trips." Look it up. They help these creatures called humans. Remember what those are?

Posted by: Tabitha | May 15, 2008 11:18 AM

They were serving PORK?

Umm ... The Old Testament specifically bans eating pork as unkosher! Now, as a Christian, I don't put much weight on the Old Testament, but still -

Posted by: Bill | May 15, 2008 11:58 AM

REAL GOOD CHURCH TEACHING, WHY DON'T THEY RESCUE OR HELP ANIMALS IN NEED. I AM SURE THE TRIP WILL INCLUDE A BULLFIGHT OR TWO!
WHY GO TO MEXICO, WE GOT ALL THE MEXICANS HERE.

Posted by: SHARIE DELLA | May 15, 2008 02:08 PM

I cannot believe that Kelly and her like-minded friends can be so insensitive to Mexican culture. Perhaps you all need to get out more and go to some Mexican events--a lot of pork gets eaten there. Anyway, if you decide to picket the event, I will be available in case you need to trade in your leather shoes and belts for some nice, comfy plastic ones.

Posted by: Ehillesum | May 15, 2008 03:37 PM

Mark, telling someone who spends their time, energy, and passion each day to help end animal TORTURE...has an amazing life, if you ask me.

Maybe you shouldn't be so hyper-sensitive and open your mind about what he's saying?

Posted by: HannaBanana | May 15, 2008 03:41 PM

I happen to know first hand as a member of Riverview Church that the group going consists of all ages; there are families with children going as well as people 18-55 as well as college students. Many are using their summer vacation time to go and they are using their own money to pay for the trip, which is at least $1,200 for each person. They are going to help an orphanage and to build houses. Our church recently raised enough money for the orphanage to buy a van. It is true we are not all vegetarians, so we don't have a problem eating meat, but we mostly care deeply about helping people and have established these summer missions trips to give up our comforts and go help those who truly need help.

Posted by: Renee | May 15, 2008 03:52 PM

So Jesus, the main figure in Christianity, was wrong by stating, "Give a man a fish, he will eat for a day, teach a man to fish, he will eat for a lifetime."

Also, Genesis 9:3;
Every moving thing that liveth shall be food for you; as the green herb have I given you all.

Posted by: Luke | May 15, 2008 04:35 PM

To the second Mark (May 15, 2008 12:40 AM) on the board - I hear ya brother!

Posted by: lynda downie | May 15, 2008 11:27 PM

Though I'm no longer a follower of Jesus of Nazareth, he taught his disciples to follow the spirit, not the letter of the law. Jack is a true follower of Jesus. He's taken him at his word.

Posted by: lynda downie | May 15, 2008 11:34 PM

I'm a athiest so yeahh
and a vegetarian
yayayayaaa

Posted by: kenady | May 16, 2008 09:57 AM

You know that I support almost everything you guys do and stand for. But I do gotta tell you that I am from Michigan and one pig roast at one church isn't even the tip of the iceberg. Everywhere you go in this state they are having frickin pig roasts. And it's a huge deal over here too. It's amazing how people worship an invitation to a pig roast. But even when I was a kid and before I was a vegan I always thought it was so disturbing to see a pigs lifeless charred body swiveling above a flame. It's reallly quite shocking to see that. But like I said, it is everywhere up here and happens all the time and not just limited to one church.

You know what I think you should look into besides just one church's eating habits. You should look into the churches that do food drives and ask for person's meat products and treat them like a delicacy. If anything, non for profits food drive organizations should be focusing on giving out higher sustaining and lower cost veggie products and not worrying about peoples chicken nuggets and spam. Rice and veggies can go a whole heck of a lot farther in feeding people and still cost considerably less.

Before I go I would love to remind people that gas prices are outrageous right now. One way to eventually drive prices down and put the big oil companies in their place is to become vegetarian. Just by going vegetarian you force the big consumers of oil, (the meat companies) into a lockhold between product in consumer demand. Eventually this whole subsidizaing meat to get it onto your plate and make meat companies richer is going to have to stop before gas gets way out hand. (Think about it, can a hamburger really cost you 99 cents when it costs upwords of $30 / $200 dollars to put on your plate.) If you want to spend less at the pump, save the animals from your plate.

Posted by: Brian Luznak I'll Never Be An MD; Never !!! | May 16, 2008 10:29 AM

Brian Luznak I'll Never Be An MD; Never!!! Love your comments!! So true!!

Posted by: Carla | May 16, 2008 02:49 PM

Brian,

Beautifully said!! These issues don't stand on their own. They are all conglomerations of problems that take on a life of their own.

Greed, oil companies, factory farming, animal abuse, big, cold corporations...when they drive the economy, they drive us. And these cold soulless machines don't care for sentient beings.

Support local farmers, stay fit, be progressive, go mininalist. These are the cool trends of the future that will keep our Planet alive.

Being spiritual means being smart and looking beyond what's just in front of us. Sometimes the answer is more subtle.

Posted by: Maya, CVT | May 16, 2008 02:55 PM

Ha, the funny thing about this whole conversation is that the pigs are being donated by a local farmer who's niece is going to Mexico to build houses for homeless people. Pretty terrible...

Posted by: Dan | May 16, 2008 03:17 PM

Catholic Concern For Animals

www.catholic-animals.org

Veganism and compassion are the Christian way. Educate yourself, read some great and pertinent information on the site and stop eating animals.

I wrote a letter to a Catholic weekly newsletter that is given each week at the Church that I attend. The letter I wrote focused on a roasted pig event that had been written about. I explained how cruel and un-Christian this act is and to try to eat less animals and to aspire to go vegan. My letter was published in a conservative Catholic newsletter!!! How wonderful for the animals and in particular the pig I wrote about also. This paper is read by millions of Catholics!!!

Posted by: Ana | May 16, 2008 04:47 PM

i'm a Christian...
and in the Old Testament God tells us the difference between clean and unclean animals, and which to EAT and which to not eat.

But later, (as Mabel pointed out earlier) He tells Peter to eat meat.... clean or unclean....

so i'm Christian and grew up on a farm...and *gasp* i eat meat!

Posted by: Jessica | May 16, 2008 06:02 PM

Ok, so I am the one that contacted PETA about this event. I have already caused problems with the church and I really don't need any more problems. I think that this issue should be left alone, maybe even taken off the blog.

My issue wasn't just with the pigs, but with Christians not showing God's love, compassion and mercy to His creatures. Compassion and mercy should be extended to both humans and nonhumans. I wanted the church to know that killing God's creatures and consuming them, especially for an event, is wrong and not in line with Christ's values of compassion and mercy. You can raise money for an event without making animals unnedlessly die for it.

All creatures deserve life like just like we do and also deserve to be protected from cruelty, suffering, pain and violent deaths. Animals in factory farms are treated horribly, inhumane and not in a Christ-like way. The way they are treated in the factory farms is also violent and as Christians, we should not be supporting violence like this.

Even if these pigs came from a local farmer, it doesn't take away from the fact that we are taking life. It isn't even necessary to take the life of the animal and that was my main concern with the pigs being used as food for this event. We have no right to take a life, especially when the animal can't give its consent to us. They have the right to life too.

We don't even need meat to be healthy or to survive. We can thrive on vegetarian diets and get all our nutrition. It is honoring God with our bodies when we eat healthy, especially when meat causes many health problems.

Now that I had my say we can seriously drop this issue and not cause anymore grief to Riverview Church. I loved the letter that was sent by PETA, but I hate that this blog ended up being more of a way to publicly expose this issue and bash them (by posters), and that is not what I EVER wanted to happen. I love this church, have been a part of the serving ministry for a year now and just wanted them to open their minds and learn more about having compassion to all God's creatures. That's it.

~*Krista*~

Posted by: Krista | May 16, 2008 10:23 PM

I do want to say that I find it quite offensive some of the things people are saying on here. I am a Christian who does attend Riverview on occasion when back in Holt, and I do not see a large problem with this. The thing that gets to be is the misinterpretation of the scriptures.

I am not going to sit here and attempt to change anyone's mind with a blog comment because I know this will fall on deaf ears. But before you go around pointing fingers and accusing people of being selfish and greedy, check the facts.

And this is a post about one churches pig roast, do we need to use it as a platform to talk about oil prices too? Get your own blog and do it there.

Posted by: Dom | May 17, 2008 09:28 AM

Interpretations of the Bible change with the times (and thus if there is an omnipotent God, that is what she intended).

People used the Bible to justify human slavery, and now it's obvious that compassionate believers cannot justify slavery. People used the Bible to justify a subordinate status for women, and now it's obvious that compassionate believers cannot justify a subordinate status for women.

It is not difficult to see that once our society moves beyond speciesism (the prejudice against taking other animals' suffering seriously), compassionate believers will not be able to justify torturing (meat.org) and killing nonhuman animals just because we like the way they taste.

If you think about it, that's crazy.

Posted by: Mark Devries | May 17, 2008 12:27 PM

In response to my last post, let me clear some things up:

I actually work for Vegan Outreach (well, not a paid worker, I volunteer for them, donate money, etc). They are my favorite animal rights organization and their views on animal rights and the way to promote vegetarianism and educate people on factory farms are the most in agreement with my views.

Because of my concerns with animals being killed and used for food to raise money, I contacted many different organizations for help and PETA ended up being the only organization that responded. I contacted all of these organizations at the same time I wrote my original letter to the church and not after Pastor Miller wrote his response back to me. So their letter had nothing to do with his response to my original letter, especially since they did not know about the letters or had not seen a copy of the letters between him and me.

I am not a member of PETA and I don’t donate to them. I don’t agree with everything they do as an organization, but I do think they have done a lot of good for animals. The information they have about factory farms, animal testing, fur, etc is the same information that every other animal rights organization has as well. It’s just the way that PETA goes about promoting their information is what I don’t always agree with. Most people focus on the negative things about PETA instead of all the good things they have done for the animals. I did like the letter that PETA sent to the church though and I was impressed with how well it was written.

Again, I am sorry for any problems caused to Riverview Church. I didn’t mean to upset them in any way. I just wanted them to know my concerns and ask them politely to consider raising money in other ways that did not include taking the lives of God’s creatures.

http://www.all-creatures.org/cva/honoring.htm

Posted by: Krista | May 18, 2008 01:52 PM