In your citation of your own website (how handy that you can cite yourself), I find no evidence that hunting at a young age leads to an increase in violent crime. When I leave the peta website, I find no evidence anywhere else. Some claim, though their citations are likely biased as well, that young people who engage in shooting sports including hunting are less likely to commit crimes in adulthood. I know that Peta feels there is no difference in torturing and killing a cat and hunting, but this is certainly not convention.

Posted by: Christopher Cochran MD | April 17, 2008 01:29 PM

this is some sort of a sick joke, right?

Posted by: pam oates | April 17, 2008 01:49 PM

What is craziest about this story is that if you were a teacher who showed a video about animals being killed for food/clothing, and how they are abused by people to middle school children there would be an outrage. You would probably end up getting fired and the parents and probably the media would freak out! but, if you tell children to go out and kill animals and take pictures to get on a bulletin board, it's totally acceptable - It is insane how backwards we are as a society... It hurts my head to think about it.

Peace.

Posted by: Brian W. Lockyer | April 17, 2008 02:03 PM

in the news...
Maryland
Dozens Of Animal Carcasses Found In Frederick Co.
POINT OF ROCKS, Md. (AP) ―
Veterinary technicians in Frederick are taking a close look at the skeletal remains of more than 70 dogs and cats in hopes of learning how they ended up in a heap near the Potomac River in Frederick County.

Harold Domer of the county's animal-control office says a man looking for mushrooms found the remains Tuesday in a wooded area of undeveloped private property off Rock Hall Road near the riverside community of Point of Rocks.

Domer says the bones appear to be those of at least 70 dogs and two cats. He says they could have been placed there about two months ago and might have accumulated over time.

Domer says the state Animal Health Diagnostic Lab in Frederick is assisting in the investigation.

Posted by: this is a hard one... | April 17, 2008 02:26 PM

This is why our Grandchildren are home schooled. To keep them away from a teacher like this one.
My heart breaks for the students that don't want to partake in this.
For them it just isn't fair.
And it must be so depressing for them and thats not good.
What a mess, what a mess.
I wonder if their helping to create a new serial killer?
This is one way to do it.
Congrats to the science teacher he may be helping to create the next Jeffery Dalmer
Good job, Good job.
Peace!!!

Posted by: Judith, Freedom Fighter for Animals | April 17, 2008 02:28 PM

This is an outrage. And most of the people commenting on that site are idiots. It's probably best that I don't read that stuff, because it just makes me angry reading about "satisfying kills" ad shtuff like that. This is truly messed up though.

Posted by: Vegancakes | April 17, 2008 03:01 PM

When I read this I was taken aback. I thought that middle school students are supposed to be as non-violent as possible- at least that's what my school teaches me. After all of the school shootings, fist fights, and more, how can you possibly be encouraging kids to be violent? And not only violent to other kids, but to animals. Animals are poor, helpless creatures that should be treated as humans but aren't. It is simply inappropriate, I mean, is this even legal?

Posted by: Stephanie Carras | April 17, 2008 03:05 PM

thats terrible! what kind of a person would ever allow children to do that!? especially a teacher! how much more abuse is this world really going to allow? people have serious issues esp. this teacher. someone should teach him a lesson or 2 about abuse & killing. what happens when one of these students grows up and deceides he doesnt want to kill animals anymore and wants to kill people then what? i bet this teacher will take a lot of credit then. what a fool!

Posted by: karla | April 17, 2008 03:53 PM

I am a avid hunter and always will bE. WE CONTROL THE DEER POPULATION WITHOUT HUNTING THOUSANDS OF DEER EVERY YEAR WOULD DIE OF STARVATION A VERY SLOW DEATH.THERE ARE ALSO THOUSANDS OF CAR DEER ACCIDENTS COSTING MILLIONS OF DOLLARS. A FRIEND OF MINE WAS KILLED A FEW YEARS BACK THIS VERY WAY. ITS CALLED THE FOOD CHAIN OF LIFE.

Posted by: Lindsey Bleess | April 17, 2008 03:53 PM

Dear,
This is a hard one.
Sounds to me like somebody is evolving.
A new Serial Killer perhaps?
How awful for those poor animals. What they must have gone through.
Let's hope I,m wrong.
Peace!

Posted by: Judith, Freedom Fighter for Animals | April 17, 2008 03:57 PM

despite the principal's insistence that people in WI hunt to put food on the table, it might be interesting to see what percentage actually hunt for this reason because they have to and what percentage hunt because they simply want to and have plenty of alternate food sources available to them.

i think we'd find that the latter far outweighs the former making this wall nothing more than a glorification of violence against beings unable to defend themselves ... which is the whole point of hunting anyway, isn't it?

Posted by: prad | April 17, 2008 04:06 PM

Uh, the thing that actually stand out to me is not so much the animal killing.

These kids are in middle school. How do they have access to guns????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

thats what scares me.

Posted by: Kevin | April 17, 2008 04:14 PM

I have never even heard of such a thing!! A "SCHOOL" teaching "CHILDREN" how to kill! Okay, yes there's places where terrorists are formed! But this is a "PUBLIC" school who's "DUTY" is suppose to keep our children feeling safe! I hope this doesn't go any futher then talk and the parents step in!! Or are they in on it too? All conditioned to think this in normal human behavior!! I hope the teacher is charged, hell and the schoolboard for even hiring such a freak!

Posted by: Carla | April 17, 2008 04:16 PM

Why are middle schoolers encouraged to kill animals?

Posted by: Annie | April 17, 2008 04:28 PM

That's the problem, Dr. Cochran, "convention". Hunting goes way back, just like owning slaves was acceptable way back then. Today, there is never any need to hunt and, in my opinion, it is murder. Just because it's conventional and we've always done and accepted it, doesn't make it right to continue to blow small animals away with powerful weapons, or any size animal. I can't imagine wanting to kill any animal. To encourage school kids to hunt/kill animals is promoting violence and the mindset that animals are here for we humans to do whatever we want to. The fact that this is considered acceptable and within the limits of the law and "conventional" is unbelievable in this day and age. Humans want to feel that they are so advanced and enlightened. Well, wanting to blow away helpless creatures for the sheer experience of killing is sick and barbaric. It is time for our culture to practice what it preaches and encourge kindness and humane treatment of all beings, human and animal beings. Animals are just like us and their lives are just as precious to them as ours are to us, and this planet is theirs to enjoy. To lock them away in dark places like factory farms, labs, and puppy mills and do horrendous, unspeakable things to them that result in unimaginable suffering is an atrocity and something that we, as a so-called ethical society, should not accept or tolerate.

Posted by: Jaymielynne Corey | April 17, 2008 04:59 PM

Regarding the wisconsin article,There is absolutely nothing wrong with this.Hunting for food and pleasure happens all over the world every day. I bet these children respect nature and wildlife as much as peta and more common sense than most of you. Lay off the school...

Posted by: Lindsey Bleess | April 17, 2008 05:05 PM

i am so disgusted that someone, a teacher, would support something like this. aren't they supposed to be teaching us, not turning their classroom into a room of death? as a middle schooler myself, if something like that was going on in my school, i would be outta there faster that you can say vegan.

Posted by: Kelly C. | April 17, 2008 05:25 PM

Kids are going nuts killing people with guns and this is what they teach? How long till there is a homicide or an accident?

Posted by: kelly | April 17, 2008 05:31 PM

just so you know my eyes are full of tears and im only 11 years old and i think that this is wrong. i mean i love steak but now that ive read this i dont know if i love it anymore. Become a vegitarian.

love,kennedy

Posted by: kennedy | April 17, 2008 07:06 PM

You folks in the urban communities don't have a clue about living in the North Country or ANY country wilderness similar to Minnesota or Wisconsin. We hunt--that's what we do. Summer we fish and hunt small game. Winter we fish and hunt deer. For food--not violence! Thus, how dare you compare this activity to Columbine. That was bad, sick teenagers taking bullying to the nth degree. Take care of your own backyards--leave ours alone.

Posted by: Tony Williams | April 17, 2008 09:11 PM

How horrible!
I have some of the same problems at my high school.The biology department is not at all animal friendly. My Biology teacher often talks about how many exotic animals he has eaten and highlights the time when he watched his friend eat live monkey brains in China. He says we must be respectful of practices because they "are just another culture and way of living". We also have a red eared slider turtle named Fred at the back of the classroom in a miniscule filthy tank and he is fed fish food.My teacher often lets him crawl around on the floor and giggling girls encourage the boys to step on him and torment him in other ways. The class often discusses all of the animals they have eaten including shark,whale,dolphin,turtle,lizards etc among the factory farmed animals.Carcasses of animals that students have hunted litter the classroom. We have to do a project and I am writing on the Canidae family, however many students have chosen to dissect and/or reconstruct skeletons. These are mostly cats ordered from bio supply companies. We also are to partake in many dissections which I refuse to take part in such as deer heads,frogs,crayfish,fetal pigs, cow eyeballs, sheep eyeballs and any other dead animal they can get their hands on.The students think this is fun and enjoy gouging the carcasses and watching the body fluids and organs drip out. One boy jammed the baby pig head on a stick and twirled it around with his friends. I thought biology was about the respect for all life. I also dropped out of a wildlife class where we would have to take part in a hunting trip,target practice and how hunting methods are vital to population control.
I feel sorry for the compassionate kids at that school!
CC there is a clear link between animal violence and human violence. Not pointedly hunting but taking delight in the murder,torture or death of an animal. This is well documented in studies of psycopaths and especially serial murderers. Just read the book "Serial Killers The Method and Madness Of Monsters by Peter Vronsky" or any great number of psychological books by the likes of Robert Hare (Without Conscience, Snakes in Suits) and the book "The Psychopath: Emotion and the Brain". I am not suggesting that all hunters are "psychopaths" let me make that clear. I am merely providing evidence for the animal-human violence link. My dad has also told me of several cases he has worked on as a Psychologist in the prison and hospital system.
A man in Canada is being praised as a hero for catching a suspected murderer recently. Though he himself illegaly traded bear gall bladders to China,was involved in poaching and boasts of killing "200" Puma's. He also keeps a pack of Bullmastiff's because he loves a "dog with balls". He talks about himself like he is a hero but he is utterly revolting.

Posted by: Annalena | April 17, 2008 09:31 PM

This makes me sick that the people besides your parents to teach u things in life are doing this. No wonder the school boards are so F-d up. They have stupid people teaching our children. & for the 1st person who wrote saying that there's no evidence read books & newspapers buddy.

Posted by: maggie | April 17, 2008 11:10 PM

My family hunts, and fishes for food. I know that PETA does not agree with this and I respect your opinions on that. However because people hunt and fish do not make them bad people, I am strongly against animal abuse, and testing and so on. I donate $20 every month to the undercover investigations by PETA and do not support companies that do animal testing. Just because you hunt does not make you a bad person.

Posted by: Ashley | April 18, 2008 08:25 AM

Christopher Cochran MD: please know that if a child feels a need to go out for hunting it is not to make a bad character out of it - but that there is already a bad character inside it - and then growing and growing!

Posted by: Doctor Arcobaleno | April 18, 2008 08:35 AM

I think that in all fairness, you should post the Response from Ken Bartelt (Principal of the middle school) I thought that I would assist PETA in informing their members of the response
To: Sangeeta Kumar, PETA

From: Ken Bartelt, Principal

I would like to respond to the fax you sent me the morning of April 7th. There are several issues on which I feel your letter to me was either inaccurate or uninformed, or both.

(1) Hunting is a part of the culture not only in our school but in many parts of the country, and especially so in northern Wisconsin. Hunting in many cases is a family activity that has been passed down from generation to generation. Families spend weeks before hunting season getting ready and often time plan their family vacations around hunting season. Students here at school get excited about it and it seems that’s all they talk about before and after they return. These aren’t violent students—they are taking part in family culture and it’s important to them. Between hunting and Packer games—not much else is bigger in these families’ lives when the fall season rolls around. The hunting wall is an extension of that culture here in our community.

(2) The hunting wall does not glorify violence. The hunting wall represents how many people provide for their families. People here hunt for a much different reason than someone taking a safari to be able to trophy some exotic animal. Many, if not most, hunt so they can have food for the year. They do not hunt “for fun” but rather to feed their families. In the article about Mr. Bailey, it mentions that this is part of what he also teaches—how to prepare the animals for consumption. There is no glorifying killing, but rather showing students how to hunt properly and safely and then eat what they have killed.

(3) To correlate hunting with increased violence in our society and with youth, as your letter states, does not hold merit. If hunting did indeed lead to violent behavior, then there would have been much more violence in our society in past generations when more people hunted compared to today. Hunters are not a growing number in our country. Their numbers have declined as our society has changed to a more urban lifestyle. Yet violence has increased dramatically in our society at the same time the number of hunters has decreased. Violence in our society is from a wide range of social and family influences, but not from hunting. Hunters are taught respect for weapons and what they should and should not be used for. They do this not only to protect themselves, but other hunters as well. Hunters are not a violent sub-set of society and to imply such is not only wrong but also unfair to hunters everywhere.

(4) Your quote, “violent acts toward animals have long been recognized as indicators of a dangerous psychopath” is extremely out of context. The people you are referring to are those people that as youth either abused or tortured a family pet, or found a frog or animal in their yard and then slowly killed it without any remorse or found some pleasure in the animal’s suffering. Those are, indeed, sick people. But this is NOT what hunting or hunters are about. To try to make that connection that young people growing up and participating in hunting will have a greater tendency to be a dangerous psychopath is grossly unfair to hunters of all ages.

(5) Your letter said that “in every recent school shooting….all the young killers abused and/or killed animals before turning on their classmates.” I have never seen any information of this kind to date. If you have any data to back up your statement, please forward it to me. From what I’ve read in newspapers and magazines, school shootings are more the result of students being victimized by teasing, harassment, bullying, and social isolation—not from students who have hunted wild game.

(6) Your letter gives the tone, and even uses the phrase “dangerous mindset”, that this school, and me as the principal, condone violence and do not work on social responsibility. I have five sons. Two of which have gone through this middle school and one is in it right now. If I thought for even one second that anything we do here would promote violence or lead to anyone being harmed, I would put a stop to it immediately. I care deeply about providing a safe school where students feel comfortable and secure in their safety. This is my 5th year as principal here and we have had very few violent behaviors in those five years. Fighting is almost non-existent and overall our students are well behaved. The fact that many of these same students partake in hunting is a testament that hunting does not lead to violence in the school.

(7) Your letter states that you would be happy to help me “develop a program to replace the hunting wall with something positive and empowering.” We already have an advisory program that every 2-3 weeks works on one of the 36 character education qualities that we promote in the school. We work very hard to instill good values into our students so they grow up to be good citizens someday. I feel our hunting wall is something positive for our students and our community and in no way has negatively affected how well run this school is or how well behaved our students are. We have a caring staff and the support of a good community—those are far more important factors.

After reading this, you are more than likely under the impression that I’m a pickup truck driving, rifle carrying, NRA supporting, devout hunter myself. The fact is—I’ve never shot a weapon in my life. My dad wasn’t a hunter and I never took an interest in it and still don’t. However, I have a great deal of respect for hunters and for people like Mr. Bailey who teach hunter safety. A great majority of hunters hunt responsibly; eat what they’ve harvested, and help keep deer herds in check. Our hunting wall is a reflection of this culture and still has my support.

I think the starvation of animals, mistreatment and/or neglect of pets and livestock is something that is wrong and I support PETA on those stances. However, your intentions should not extend to hunting or fishing.

Thank you for bringing this issue to your web page and to our local media. You have my permission to print my response in its entirety so others can get the entire picture of what our school is doing and to dispel the accusations contained in your letter.

P.S. From Kodiak, PETA has yet to post his response.

Posted by: Jared | April 18, 2008 08:48 AM

When you hunt, you have distance and a gun on your side--the animals cannot possibly compete with that. But you act like you've accomplished something great with your kill. You should be ashamed of yourselves. If you need to hunt to make yourself feel valuable in some way, then I think you need to take a look at why your self-esteem is so low.

Posted by: Antigone1000 | April 18, 2008 09:48 AM

That was an honest response from Ken Bartelt.

Posted by: Holly | April 18, 2008 09:49 AM

Stephanie Carras and kelly, your points are excellent.

For anyone justifying this based on "culture", isn't that what Mike Vick supporters were using to justify those involved in dog fighting......?

Posted by: Michele | April 18, 2008 10:48 AM

For your information "Lindsey" whatever your name is..lets for a minute step back and look at this way - if we were doing that to a human, that person would be immediately sentenced to the death penalty and it would be all over the news with millions of supporters right? why is that humans think they are so much better? Get over yourself..At the end of the day we were nothing but flesh and bones who walk around with clothes and try to make this so called world a place of business where everything is sold and bought..If you really think about it, we sell for a green piece of paper..its all BS. Oh by the way, I hope in your next life you're a pig who is held at a shooting ranch to test the pressure of bullets. Good luck whorebag

Posted by: Anonymous123 | April 18, 2008 11:42 AM

I think this matter at hand is outrageous. Why is it necessary for a school to teach their students about hunting and how to hunt? How are they so sure that the parents of these students want their children to be taught how to hunt? I understnad that hunting provides food on the table, but there has to be another way(besides hunting) to put put food on the table for your family.

This matter should be taken up with school district and I think that this school district should have a meeting where everybodies opinions can be heard and also where parents, children, schools, and others could be informed about animal cruelty.

I, personaly, disagree with what is being allowed to be taught in this school because they're teaching children how to hunt animals. The next thing you know they will be telling children that it's okay to do drugs and will actually providting children with the narcotics.

How in the hell are these children getting access to the weapons anyway??? I wouldn't be surprised if a child shot somebody with one of the guns that they had got from the school. I think then the school district and the school would second guess teaching the children how to hunt.

It is not the techers job to show his/her students how to hunt. If the parents of these students wanted their children to learn how to hunt, don't you think they would teach them themselves?

Posted by: christina | April 18, 2008 12:37 PM

I just have to post in response to all of this "We live in MN and hunt, it's what we do" crap.

I have lived in Minnesota my whole life and have never, NEVER picked up a gun or a fishing rod or any of the other things used to kill animals. It's not like when you're born here or move here they automatically give you a gun and a hunting license. It's a choice you make, to kill innocent animals.

I am ashamed that hunting is such a popular pasttime here. No one in my family hunts nor do any of my friends.

Hunting is not a sport. Give the animal a gun and teach it how to use the gun, then you have a sport.

Posted by: Jill | April 18, 2008 01:13 PM

Lindsey,
To live and die in Wisconsin.

Posted by: Judith, Freedom Fighter for Animals | April 18, 2008 01:22 PM

christina get your facts straight.
1. the school does not give any guns to students.
2. the school does not teach hunting to every single student that goes to that school.
3. the teacher teaches a hunters safety class in his spare time he does not teach it during school hours.
4. almost every state requires anyone who wants to hunt it is mandatory they take a hunters safety class that is given by a person who is qualified and who is licensed by the state to do so only after taking multiple tests and attending multiple classes to become a licensed hunter saftey instructor.
5. in most states children who want to hunt but are under the age of 18 have to have their parents signed permission to even participate in a hunters saftey class and most parents attend the class with their children even though the parent or parents have already completed the course.

Posted by: claude | April 18, 2008 09:17 PM

Tony Williams: Well, pursuing higher education COULD be what you do, instead of hunting. You might want to think about that.

Posted by: Antigone1000 | April 19, 2008 10:25 AM

This type of practice may or may not lead to violence in adulthood.

I am a beliver that it does. Violence is violence, regardless if it is towards humans or animals.

This teaches children at a very young age disrespect for nature and it is pointless to carry out the activity.

I was sickened upon reading this that someone of such an influence to these children would make them commit such a violent moral crime-that has NO educational value what so ever.

Im more surprised that parents aren't up at the school screaming their lungs out over such a horrible idea this is!!

-Ashley

Posted by: Ashley | April 19, 2008 11:07 AM

Sure, some kids in the area may hunt with their families - but what about kids in the classroom who may not feel comfortable with killing animals?

Hunting and killing are very intense activities!!! This is not arts and crafts or calculus - this is a serious business that should be handled by the families privately, not by public schools.

It reminds me of the Kansas schoolboard trying to force kids to hear about how Intelligent Design is an alternative to evolution.

They're trying to force an entire culture of hunting on a classroom full of kids who probably have varied interests. It's inappropriate.

Religion and hunting should be handled within families, not by entire public schools. Some kids may be made to feel uncomfortable if they are on the "outside"!

Posted by: Maya, CVT | April 19, 2008 01:42 PM

PETA does a lot of good things and as an animal lover and proud owner of two dogs, I appreciate that.

I'm not a hunter and couldn't see myself pulling the trigger of a gun and killing an animal, unless I was starving in the wilderness and had no other choice.

Same thing with fishing; it just doesn't intique me that much to go out and do it.

That said.

Reading this story and the comments associated with it is frustrating.

Equating a child learning and participating in the time-honored tradition of hunting(which is legal, by the way) to them becoming "the next Jeffrey Dahmer" is absolutely ludicrous.

Some of the finest individuals and most well-mannered children that I've had the pleasure of knowing, are in fact hunters and anglers.

A kid taking BB gun practice on a cat? Wrong. Absolutely cruel. A kid spending the day in the woods, properly licensed, mentored and putting a meal on the table, quite a different story.

Posted by: Tim | April 19, 2008 04:55 PM

Wasn't Jeffrey Dahmer from Wisconson? Point taken...research his early years. Started with torturing and killing animals. Oh and by the way do any of those students actually need the food? Doubt it...

Posted by: Patricia Donahue | April 19, 2008 08:08 PM

There is a difference between hunting and torturing, yes, but the teacher does not ( at least not in the story) say hunt, he uses the word KILL. And if children are encouraged to just go ahead and kill,that means they are not learning respect for animals. And there is a difference between just KILLING and hunting.
This is just wrong. The world is fu**ed up because people have no respect for human or animal life, simple as that.

Posted by: Monica | April 19, 2008 10:55 PM

Unbelievable - a SCHOOL actually encouraging students to shoot,and kill animals!That is truly bizarre - if I had ever encountered anything like this at any of the schools my 4 sons attended,I would have been outraged.
I simply can not comprehend the mentality which sees a beautiful animal - and the reaction is - kill it!

Posted by: angelou | April 20, 2008 06:31 AM

Dear Christopher Cochran "MD" and other comment-makers standing behind what the school is doing:

Your comment shows me how little you know about serial killers and their development. Many of the most violent and sadistic murderers and torturers got their start as children harming animals. If you did a search outside of PETA's website for this information and didn't find any proof, you obviously did not look hard enough. Even Wikipedia has proof cited.

"One of the known warning signs of certain psychopathologies, including anti-social personality disorder, also known as psychopathic personality disorder, is a history of torturing pets and small animals, a behavior known as zoosadism. According to the New York Times, "[t]he FBI has found that a history of cruelty to animals is one of the traits that regularly appears in its computer records of serial rapists and murderers, and the standard diagnostic and treatment manual for psychiatric and emotional disorders lists cruelty to animals a diagnostic criterion for conduct disorders.[citation needed] "A survey of psychiatric patients who had repeatedly tortured dogs and cats found all of them had high levels of aggression toward people as well, including one patient who had murdered a young boy."[citation needed] Robert K. Ressler, an agent with the Federal Bureau of Investigation's behavioral sciences unit, studied serial killers and noted,"Murderers like this [Jeffrey Dahmer] very often start out by killing and torturing animals as kids."[5]

Cruelty to animals is one of the three components of the MacDonald Triad, indicators of violent antisocial behavior in children and adolescents. According to the studies used to form this model, cruelty to animals is a common (but not with every case) behavior in children and adolescents who grow up to become serial killers and other violent criminals."

I am not saying that hunting for population control or food for your family is horrible and should be held at the same level as killing a human. My personal choice to be vegetarian is based on the idea that I personally would not be able to go out, kill, skin, and butcher an animal myself. Therefore, it would be hypocritical for me to be able to eat an animal in any circumstance. If you are able to do all that and still enjoy that meat, good for you.

However, I think what the school is promoting with their project is trophy hunting, which I feel is something totally different. To encourage students (who may or not be with a licensed hunter/ weapons owner) to kill, photograph and then eat the animal they have killed is irresponsible and in my opinion, just in bad taste.

Being a former teacher myself, I realize that teachers are required to link their lesson concepts to State Education Standards (kind of as a backup for doing a certain project). The only link I could find for this project to be viable and something the state could stand behind was the following standard for grade eight.

G.8.7 Show* evidence* of how science and technology are interdependent, using some examples drawn from personally conducted investigations*

I'm sure there is some alternate to the project that could have been implemented.

Posted by: Jen | April 20, 2008 07:48 AM

"I, personaly, disagree with what is being allowed to be taught in this school because they're teaching children how to hunt animals. The next thing you know they will be telling children that it's okay to do drugs and will actually providting children with the narcotics."

Yeah... that's likely.... ha

Hunters have the advantage you say? - Maybe you forget that animals like deer can see & smell MANY MULTIPLE times better than any human. If you so much as flinch at the wrong moment, the jig is up. If you're in the wrong position because the wind is blowing your scent towards the deer, the jig is up.

You over-sheltered cry babies can say whatever you want, hunters are awesome and you are weak. When society fails you, you won't be able to survive. The hunters&farmers will live on and you will be begging them for help. The "barbaric traditions" of "torturing and killing innocent animals" will come through for us. We'll keep hunting, fishing, and farming. We will be much better and appreciative people for it too.

Nature does not care about any particular thing. It moves on constantly. Predator and Prey interact infinitely. If I choose to obtain my food straight from the source (the woods) then I have every right to do that. It saves me ALOT OF MONEY, its more rewarding because ITS FAIR TO THE ANIMAL. Yes that's right FAIR to the animal, because it wasn't raised on a farm destined to be slaughtered. It had A FAIR CHANCE use its senses and isntincts to escape. I have to EARN the kill, instead of driving to WALMART and buying a celaphane wrapped hunk of meat.

God Bless the school system that shows kids the realities of life and death. The rest of you can go back to numbing your minds watching "the flavor of love" and "High School Reunion".

Final Note: You will never succeed at ending hunting or the use of animals for human consumption.

Posted by: Joe | April 20, 2008 04:50 PM

while i do not agree with hunting for sport, i do agree that in some (but very few in today's western society) cases, hunting is nesessary for food. however, it is something that only adults should do, as it is a parent's responsibility to provide for their family, not the child's. there should be an age restriction on hunting just like with alcohol and cigarets and it should be older than in just middle school, because guns are dangerous and there is more chance of an accident when a child is involved.

also, when children reach a more appropriate age for hunting, it should be up to their parents to teach them how, not their school. this is because some children may not wish to take part, and it can be quite upsetting for them at that age. they go to school to learn things like english and math. and if they want to bring what they are calling their "culture" into the school, then they could do that by having stories when the season is over. but photographs are a bit much, just incase their is a child who finds it upsetting.

i aslo want to mention that the principal did have a point in the number 4 part of his letter concerning animal abuse leading to violent behaviour. hunting isn't the problem in that case, it's a different type of abuse. so if nothing else, i really hope that these children arn't doing anything worse than hunting.

while i know it isn't possible in every community due to costs, here is another suggestion for one issue. if there is a large # of an animals that must be shot in order to prevent the population from growing too big, then a # aught to be calculated for the area, a # that it is nesessay to be killed, and it should be done by professinals to get the # exact, and no more animals than nesessary are killed. they could start by shooting old or sick animals so less of the healthy population is killed, and the carcasses could be given to zoos and such to feed other animals that are in programs to prevent their extinction. some could also be given to families who have no other food and usually have to hunt.

i believe that as long as people can change, the world can change.

and for those of you who are christians out there (i do understand respectfully that this dosn't include everyone), God made on thing very blunt and clear in His ten commandments. He said THOU SHALT NOT KILL!

now i have a feeling that there is likely an exeption for nesessity, like if a family has no other way to feed it's self, but i very much doubt that He would make an exception for killing for pleasure and sport, even if it is animals! He still made them and loves them and declared them to be good, just like he made us and loves us and declared us to be good.

i hope i havn't offended anyone with anything i've said, it is after all only my opinion. i respect yours, and your right to free speech, so please respect mine. if you disagree with anything i've saidthen please let me know nicely.

peace to averyone (no matter which side of the debate you support), and God bless.

Posted by: Horse lover | April 20, 2008 07:02 PM

wow. PETA, how about you frame this argument a bit more to your likings? i love how you use the word "kill" instead of "hunt" and how you tie together "killing animals" with violence. Lets be accurate, shall we? there is a connection with children who torture and kill animals for fun at a young age and violence, but you accidentily portrayed the assumption that hunting and torturing for fun is the same thing. I approach things with an open mind, but it is incredibly irritating when you dramatize an issue to better suite your needs. A little better research next time please.

Posted by: Fawn | April 20, 2008 07:19 PM

It's sad to read all excuses people find to justify why they hunt: Control deer population, my friend hit a deer and died in a car accident, we live in MN and that's what we do, etc. However, the worst of them comes from the Principal of the Middle School, who says:"Families spend weeks before hunting season getting ready and often time plan their family vacations around hunting season." Then, he contradicts himself saying: "The hunting wall represents how many people provide for their families." Howcome these people don't have the financial resources to pay for their food, but can afford to go on vacation and pay for the very expensive hunting gear (guns, ammunition, camouflage outfit, etc.)? Do those families go on hunting vacations to put food on the table? I don't think so. Don't tell me you hunt for food and go on a hunting vacation for fun. He also says:
"Between hunting and Packer games—not much else is bigger in these families’ lives when the fall season rolls around." How sad and boring life must be for those families, as there is nothing good for them to do but finding delight in the torture and death of a defenseless animal. And for those, including the School Principal, who have never learned about the connection between animal abuse and violent crimes against people, read "Animal cruelty: Pathway to Violence Against People." By Linda Merz-Perez and Kathleen M. Heide. The British Journal of Criminology.2005;45:989-992.

Posted by: Robson Nascimento | April 21, 2008 01:28 AM

Joe
You come across as very arrogant.I am not a cry baby as you insist. Please do not speak so crudely on your own stereotypical assumptions about those who support animal rights because it only justifies the negative opinions I have for those of your lifestyle. I do not shop at Wal Mart and I have never heard of the television(?) programs you suggest. I am not weak because I do not feel the need to kill animals and/or consume their flesh. I know how to prepare and grow food. We are all somewhat dependant on social construction. I am sure that you enjoy many benefits of modern technology. Can you create a gun from scratch? Can you hunt without one? Without a bow or knife? If all of the modern benefits were taken away from hunters and farmers I doubt you would survive any better than vegetarians.How are you more appreciative for exploiting animals? The realities of life and death?Yes death and life are a reality. However shooting animals is your own choice. You have caused the needless death and it is a reality you create that does not have to be so. It should not be part of the education system. Some may call you weak for grasping to convenient social beliefs. Yes needless blood and death are difficult things to deal with and horrify me. I am not at all ashamed of that. I am not "over-sheltered" I have seen and experienced many horrific things.It is for some of these horrors thatI am a vegan.

Posted by: Annalena | April 21, 2008 12:13 PM

Father Kills Son in Hunting Accident After Mistaking Him for Turkey
Sunday, April 20, 2008
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,351877,00.html

The father should have taken the class.....

Posted by: Holly | April 21, 2008 01:37 PM

Joe, hello! ;)

I think Annalena made it very clear that she was just stating her personal opinion, so maybe we can all show each other respect. ;)

As a graduate student of biology I have all the respect in the world for people who live off the land. It is much better for the Earth and so much less waste is produced. I admire you for helping our environment.

I don't hunt, but I am trained in forest survival and I could certainly live off the land like Native Americans do - the woods provide us with everything we need if we just know where to look.

It's true that our environment is unstable, but it is unlikely that society will fail and we'll have to live in the woods.

A more likely scenario is that introduced bees from apiaries will spread the deadly mites to native bees, and all species will die.

It is estimated that if bees go extinct, humans will perish within 4 to 5 years afterwards because farmed crops will die out.

The other likely scenario is that global warming will cause severe drought and only the rich will be able to afford water.

So as I said, living off the land is good. But hunting involves two rather intense situations:

1. Children having guns
2. Children killing animals.

Unfortunately, kids that go to public school do not have a choice. They must by law attend school. Introducing a culture of hunting is no more fair than introducing an animal rights program into the classes.

What would make more sense would be to have a hunting camp or after school program, that way it would be optional and families would get to decide privately if they want their kids to do hunting or something else like soccer or arts and crafts.

And I hope, Joe, that if society had a starvation problem, that the kids who knew how to farm and hunt would share their resources with those who did not.

A society where we cooperate and help each other is so much better than one where we are each other's enemies, don't you think?

;) Thank you for listening.

;)

Posted by: Maya, CVT | April 21, 2008 02:02 PM

We do not teach hunting in our school. Mr. Bailey teaches a hunter safety class in the evenings. We have never held an assembly or done a play or encouraged students to hunt as some of the blogs have indicated. This wall of pictures is a non-issue in our school. On the same day these articles appeared in local papers, each paper devoted a 1/2 page section to the local turkey hunt going on. The students brining in pictures to put on Mr. Bailey's wall are no different than the pictures we see in the newspapers here each week. These students who partake in this activity are some of the best behaved students we have and are in no way violent kids. Detroit and Oakland are the most violent cities in America--I doubt there's much hunting going on there. Violence is a societal problem and because of the breakdown of family. Please do not put hunters in that category. The argument about whether hunting is "moral" is one that neither side will see eye to eye on from what I have read. My only other concern was that I have been portrayed as some loose cannon that's running the most evil school in America. I took great offense to that. I have worked to great lengths to have a school that has very few fights or violent student behavior and overall our students exhibit excellent behavior, values and character traits. My own children go to school here and to think that I would purposefully put any student at risk of violent behavior was an insult to me. And to answer the other question--Yes, families here do indeed struggle to feed their families and do use the food in that manner. And if they don't, they donate the food to local shelters. These are solid, good people who teach respect for weapons. Said one parent," I'd rather be hunting with my child than hunting for him." These parents know where their children are, who their with and what they're doing. If every parent did this, there'd be a lot less problems in our world. I stand by every word of my letter to PETA.

Posted by: Ken Bartelt | April 21, 2008 02:59 PM

Ken
It'd be nice if you had a wall dedicated to kids who show compassion for animals to counterbalance those who see them as food. Kids who are pained by the thought of killing animals for any reason should be honored in your school.

Posted by: lynda downie | April 22, 2008 10:57 PM

Ken,
I thought your reponse to PETA was very well writen and thougth out! I too agree that the headline they used is a gross over statement to the truth!
They make it sound like kids are out everyday just shooting away, killing tens of deer a piece. I don't think PETA realizes that shooting one dear can feed a family for a couple of months at a time, if not more!
Also, deer season is not year round, it only last a few weeks out of the year. Any deer shot before or after that season is against the law and carries with it a stiff punishment!
It seems to me this teacher is teaching kids to respect guns and the danger they can present and to respect nature as an intergal part of life!
Anyway, don't let the insults get to you, there are millions more that see things your way versus theirs!

Posted by: Kurt K | April 23, 2008 11:55 AM

All the hunters I have met take great pleasure in killing. They hunt animals that are not meant to be eaten just for the killing experiance (example: how do you prepare a BOBCAT that just happened to be in gun range?) and if they don't kill the poor create with the first shot they follow the blood trail to try to shoot it again or let it suffer to to death in the woods. I don't beleive that hunting is anything more than a sport that uses animal suffering and trophy heads to reward the participants. The same as fishing is. Catch and release is a big joke in the fishing world because the fish die soon after wards. Catch and kill the animal with your bare hands and eat the meat still warm from the fresh kill, isn't that the way the hunt was done in the past. Since everyone keeps talking about the past, that would be a great bragging rights and the animals would have a farir chance.

Just because something was done in the past does not make it right to do in the future. The past was a very violent place just ask anyone who did not have money. There were more deaths per area because of this a lot were never reported because the poor did not count.

Posted by: c | April 24, 2008 12:16 PM

Everyone can go on and on and try to prove how smart they are - but to me, the bottom line is - what is fun about chasing something down and killing it? I don't understand why hunting is considered a sport? I don't understand how anyone gets joy out of harming/killing something? Someone inform me, because when I see something hurt or running for its life I feel pity and compassion, not fun nor sport?

Posted by: Pam | April 24, 2008 01:38 PM

To the hunter whose comments are ubsurd. LB, The deer would not be starving if not for the taking of their habitat by humans. Do not use starvation to rationalize your senseless hunting of them. As for the the food chain, wolves are natural predators of deer and caribou and they can control the deer population without interference from people like you. That is the natural FOOD CHAIN! When it comes to the millions of dollars in car accidents. How many of those accidents are caused because the person driving the car was speeding, drinking, or falling asleep at the wheel? Check the stats before you hide behind that statement!

Posted by: Marilyn | April 24, 2008 02:07 PM

The reason hunting would be more acceptable 150 years ago would be because access to protein was not as good as it is now. The country was also predominantly rural. These kids are probably better off hunting and eating wild animals than they are eating the animal products they do normally.

I like the idea that they're learning how to safely operate a firearm at a young age but I wish they could find a better method. Clay pigeons and target shooting would be acceptable.

Posted by: Stephen the Vegan | April 24, 2008 02:16 PM

I am disgusted by this and cant believe that this could and does go on.. First of all it is not in my nature to kill animals.. I do understand that in the past (far-past) people hunted to feed their families and I would never be the one to say this is wrong in any way, But this is a new age where you don’t have to kill defenseless animals to survive. It pains me to know that an educator of or children who are our future thinks this is a good lesion. And further more what kind of family activity is hunting, what could you possibly learn from this. What kind of people think killing is a bonding family activity. In my opinion we should teach our children killing of any sort is wrong and it should not be glorified in any way shape or form.

Posted by: Christine | April 24, 2008 02:24 PM

I am appalled that such a thing should be allowed in our public school system. There is already too little respect for life, be it human or animal and we don't need anymore.

To respond to one reader's comments that when people do violence to animals it doesn't effect their attitude toward their fellowman is dead wrong.

FBI reports document that a person who does violence to animals can and will do the same or worse acts of violence to human beings. In fact they have a special department investigating such cases.

Posted by: Richard W. Firth | April 24, 2008 02:38 PM

richard your comment is just asinine hunting is not torture people who hunt and children who are taught to hunt and handle firearms are less likely to be involved in violent crimes this whole link between hunting and serial killers is just PETA propaganda. now people who sit there and repeatedly stab a cat just to hear it scream then set the thing on fire to watch it die slowly are the ones that become serial killers not hunters. there is absolutely no link between hunting and people who commit violent crimes.

Posted by: claude | April 24, 2008 05:01 PM

People don't need to eat meat to survive; millions of vegetarians are proof of that.
What the "teacher" is teaching is truly heartless and disgusting. I worry anytime I see anyone take pleasure in causing pain to others. I've always said that you can tell a lot about a person by the way she/he treats animals.
How sad...how very sad.

Posted by: Louise | April 24, 2008 06:52 PM

Richard W
That is the most absurd comment I have ever read. So what you are saying is that every person that has shot a deer, rabbit, quail, moose, etc. is now a murderer? You really need to think before you write such a massive over statement! I am from a rural area, I have known hundreds of hunters and I have yet to know of any that killed a fellow human.
Hunting is not torture! If anything it is a quick and painless death in the majority of the cases.

Marilyn,
Again, why do you have to blame everything on people. If a deer walks out in the middle of the road and gets hit by a car you assume that the person was drunk or speeding. I don't know where you live but my grandma has hit two deer in the past ten years. I will gaurantee she wasn't drinking. That shit happens all the time, I don't believe that all of America sits around and drinks everyday.

Stephen the Vegan
You say nobody has to hunt anymore to feed there family. That is a load of crap as well. True there are some hunter that hunt just for sport and I do find that unecessary. However, up until twenty to thirty years ago the majority of this country still lived in rural or sparsely populated areas. Many people didn't have regular access to a local grocery store then and many still don't today. One deer can feed a family for months. It is a very efficient way to feed a family. True, people who live in an urban area don't have to worry about killing their food, but there are many in this country that find it easier to hunt.

I'm not even a hunter, but I do support the activity! Many of you ask how is this a family experience. I don't know. Like I said, I don't hunt and neither did my father. But I know many fathers and sons who did bond over hunting. I don't understand it just as much as they don't understand why you hate them so much!

Posted by: Kurt K | April 24, 2008 08:16 PM

All I can say is oh my God. It's these kinds of people that I truely can't stand to think about. Life is a beautiful thing so what's different from a human life or an animal life? We both deserve to live. Guess what I used to have a friend that said that animals were only put here for us to use adn that sounds a lot like what the teacher believed. Just sick and wrong!!

Posted by: Kaycee Reader | April 26, 2008 03:18 PM

Hey there Kurt!

You make some really interesting points. As usual I love to play devil's advocate LOL ;)

Hunting is absolutely a family activity in some places. I grew up in New Hampshire and it was fairly conservative and back-woods ish.

Conservative dads and sons don't feel comfortable bonding like women do. Men can hardly feel comfortable sitting around talking about their feelings or baking cakes - they are either labelled as "gay" or as wimpy.

So hunting and fishing is an activity where they can spend time together and still feel macho. I'm not trying to stereotype men or women but some areas are just old fashioned.

Obviously this activity is passed along generations.

To me, hunting for food and feeling pity for the animal is one thing - but there are all types, Kurt, and some kids and adults will blow an animal away, laughing and using the animals as trophies.

These folks also take joy in canned hunts, leghold traps and taunting an animal as it dies a slow death. This DOES happen with some hunters.

Children and adults who shoot animals and taunt them as they die painfully do have something wrong with them. It is not good when someone can feel no pity for a dying animal and in fact laugh at its severe pain.

I'm not saying all hunters are sociopaths - it just depends on how they react.

I also agree that many people who collide with deer and moose are just driving. But consider this - deer are overpopulated because hunters and developers killed off all their natural habitat.

Their migration routes, crucial to survival, are now blocked by highways and roads. This is not the fault of the deer or moose - it's a human issue.

So I'm not saying that people deserve to die, only that when we build human structures on top of wild animal's habitat, we must expect there to be conflicts and not blame it on the animals, who are just trying to survive.

Peace, friend. ;)

Posted by: Maya | April 27, 2008 11:34 AM

Oops, sorry I meant to say hunters killed off their PREDATORS and developers killed off their habitat.

By the way Kurt, new technology is being developed by biologists so that motion sensors can detect moose and deer about to cross roads. Hopefully this will be out soon and will save lives.

Posted by: Maya | April 27, 2008 11:38 AM

Maya,
I'm glad to see that you don't buy into the idea that all hunters are psychopaths! If I may, I would like to offer a rebutal.
Though I have never shot a deer, moose or whatever, I have been hunting with friends a couple of times just to see what all the fuss was about. I was one of those guys that felt bad when I heard about a deer being shot and still do a certain extent. I have to tell you though, for the most part it was boring sitting in one spot for three hours, waiting for a deer to walk by. However, when one did appear it was really exciting and it was easy to see why hunters spend many mornings in the woods.
Trust me, for every morning a hunter shoots something, there are 30 where he won't see or shoot anything.
And as far as hunters being sociopaths, I would guess it is probably like 1 in a 1000 that are psychotic!
Furthermore, I keep hearing how it is mans fault that the deer are over populated for what we did in the past. Well, I guess my answer is, what is done is done, now we have to deal with the problems at hand! Right?

I have one question for you Maya. I we are encroaching on the deer's and other animals' habitats, then what exactly is our natural habitat? It seems to me animals natural habitats are where they can adapt and live. Humans just have the uncanny ability to adapt to live anywhere.

Posted by: Kurt K | April 28, 2008 11:08 AM

Hey there Kurt! ;)

Again, let's grow out of this idea that we use the word "fault". Having the higher brain power that we have makes it NOT our "fault", but our responsibility.

We have the ability to feel empathy and to adjust, and we should use what we were given to do good.

Your qusetion is a great one. If we do have the ability to adapt and live anywhere, then I wonder why we would choose to destroy the habitat of so many animals who have no choice at all.

We don't just live where we need to; we build Walmarts, parking lots, factories, theme parks, highways, gift stores, you get the picture.

The excessive paving over of natural habitats causes ecological destruction, kills off entire species and pollutes our water.

It's not the humble little home that is the problem; its the complete razing of entire ecosystems.

I'm in grad school studying this problem right now; trust me, it's frightening for all of us. The next generations are going to hate us.

Anyway, I have hope that people like you and I can come up with solutions.

;) Namaste, my friend.
I hope it's sunnier where you are - it's raining here!!

Posted by: Maya, CVT | April 28, 2008 11:56 AM