A time for peace, I swear it's not too late.

Posted by: Holly | April 7, 2008 10:33 AM

Anyone who thinks that wild animals are defenseless doesn't know very much about wild animals. When you discount wild animals thusly you confirm the very thing you strive so hard to deny. Peta campaigns daily against the notion of human superiority over animals, then claim that deer, rabbits, and fowl are so stupid and weak as to be defenseless, so much so that they must be defended by the likes of Peta. Trust me, they don't need the help of the average I-love-my-cat-so-all-animals-must-be-just-like-my-cat peta disciple who once visited a park and saw a wild turkey. They do very well defending themselves. Do they wear bullet proof vests? No, that would be a uniquely human defense. They are, however, extremely cunning, fast, and near perfectly camoflauged; definitely not defenseless. Those animals in the abbatior videos are defenseless. They have been bred down to the point that they have almost no defenses. I say these things not to justify hunting, rather to defend wild animals against this misconception.
Like most liberal causes you really aren't interested in liberty or freedom, rather, the imposition of the restrictions and rules you, in your self-perceived superiority, think are best for all of us inferior minds. You don't want to "free" animals. You want to lord over them in your own ways as evidenced by how little credence you give wild animals. Once again I can't help but see the pigs at the kitchen table.

Posted by: Christopher Cochran MD | April 7, 2008 10:46 AM

CC, more than 100 million animals are killed by hunters every year, and more than 26 billion animals are killed annually by the meat industry in this country alone.

Compare that with the number of people who are killed by wild animals, and then tell me who's defenseless.

Nobody at PETA is trying to imbue animals with human characteristics, and the extent to which people consider animals to be wise, cunning, fierce, etc., isn't particularly relevant. The fundamental point, as always, is that they have the same capacity to suffer as we do, and we have the mental capacity to realize that this poses a serious moral problem.

Posted by: Jack | April 7, 2008 11:14 AM

I am not saddened by this death.
C.C.,
Do the right thing for the animals you hunt and kill.
Take your gun, shove it up your butt and pull the trigger.
Peace!

Posted by: Judith, Freedom Fighter for Animals | April 7, 2008 11:23 AM

With great humility, I suggest that the biggest problem is not lack of compassion, but lack of respect for wild animals.

Many farmers say they feel guilty or sorry when the go to slaughter their pigs and hunters feel sorry for shooting cute deer. Does that stop them from doing it? Of course not!!

People think of suffering as a natural part of life. All of us suffer, but not all of us know respect.

If a homeless man dies on the streets, of course people think it's sad - they feel sorry for the guy's suffering. But they consider that death normal, comes with the territory.

Whereas if someone like Martin Luther King or Diane Fossey dies, it's considered a huge tragedy!! That's because those people were highly --respected --

We need to teach the public to be more saavy about wild animals. People who read sites like BBC Nature tend to be more respectful and understanding of wildife.

More facts, fewer emotions.

Posted by: Maya, CVT | April 7, 2008 11:52 AM

Your figures indicate we are either much better at defending ourselves, or we do not put ourselves in harms way. In reality it comments on offense, not defense. For the record, millions of people die worldwide from animal attacks every year. Over a million people die from malaria/mosquito attacks (yes, though not warm, fuzzy, and feline, they are animals) annually. Defenseless implies that the animal has no ability to protect itself from predation which, in relation to wild animals, is not true. Also, applying "orphan" to deer is definitely an attempt to imbue human characteristics on a different species. If "defenseless" isn't the point, then I must imply that it is a term used only to conjure emotions.
I do not agree that animals have the same capacity to suffer as humans. A great deal of our suffering is related to our sapience rather than sentience. I do not know of any animal that has been so cursed with the ability to know as we do. Animals feel pain which does not necessarily mean suffering as any woman who has birthed a child knows (so I'm told). Suffering is pain plus the appropriately negative emotion, of which animals are thankfully ignorant. Ah, to be blissfully unaware!
I'll tell you who is defenseless: dead people. They have no ability to defend themselves from attacks on their legacy. They have no ability to defend themselves from so- called moral people dancing on their graves (don't be coy, that is what this post is) Taking joy in the death of your enemy is not progressive thought, it's just petty. Abe Lincoln compelled the band to play "Dixie." That was civilized and classy. This is not.

Posted by: Christopher Cochran MD | April 7, 2008 01:05 PM

Christopher Cochran your posts can be so aggressive. You come across as being so angry. I can't even begin to tell you how many times I was offended by your labels in your first post.

Posted by: Jaclyn | April 7, 2008 01:42 PM

Hi Chris! ;)

Being a man of science, I'm sure you realize that your comments are a bit of an oversimplification. You know that each of us has only one life, and we should not take another life lightly.

Personally that's what I object to when I see these gun-totin', wife beatin' proud Amercian SOBs who shove it in our face all the time. I'm not saying I'm glad he's dead, just that I can see why he rubs people the wrong way.

An animal living out its life and being killed for food at the end is better than suffering its whole life. PETA know this; check their FAQ wildlife seciton; they clearly state that they have no problem with tribal folks killing wildlife for food.

Too often, though, it is part of excess in our culture; animals are carelessly killed, hunted only for trophies, and the "rah rah shoot 'em up, kill the wolves" attitude exibited by some hunters is offensive to those of us constantly trying to make this world less hostile to all living beings.

Peace, friend.

Listen, I'm a mountain biker and a conservation biologist. The Sierra Club hates mountain bikers - I thought it was unreasonable until I saw my favorite forest fragmented into a maze of mountain bike trails. Tragic. Hunting can be overdone as well.

I've worked with horses, cats, dogs, all kind of exotics, and wildlife my whole life.

I'm a professional and I'm here to tell you, it's anthropomorphizing to say that animals don't suffer or enjoy their lives as much as we do. They simply experience life in a very different way.

Posted by: Maya, CVT | April 7, 2008 01:45 PM

Malaria? Is a disease carried by mosquitos. It is not an attack but a disease that is spread. The spread of AIDS is usually not an attack and murder of another human being unless it is intentional.CC what is your fixation on felines? Many of us care about the welfare of all animals not just the warm, fuzzy and doe eyed.Jack is not defacating on C.H's legacy he is actually quite polite. When my enemy dies I do not throw a party but I certainly do not weep either. Animals suffer extreme pain both emotionally and physically. Our canine companions know emotional loss and suffering as do countless other animals. While they may be ignorant of some things (ignorance is bliss) this can lend more terror to them, ie. they do not know that the needle may help them not kill them. I have an issue with macho hunters who take pictures of themselves sitting on the head of a dead buck with a stupid grin on their face. That is not at all classy. No animals are not completely defenseless but in the face of human brutality they need a hand. Humans show little balance or restraint, as the state of the world shows. Shooting an unaware animal in the back of the head from a helicopter or jeep for "sport" is sickening.

Posted by: Annalena | April 7, 2008 01:47 PM

Oy, my paragraphs got a bit jumbled LOL!! Sorry 'bout that!

Posted by: Maya, CVT | April 7, 2008 01:49 PM

I agreee wholeheartedly with
Judith Freedom Fighter for Animals; excellent comment!
It needed to be said.

Posted by: Pamela L. | April 7, 2008 02:29 PM

To CC,

What the heck are you doing on this blog? Are you one of the paid people of the meat-eating/gun-toting/hunting industry whose job it is to debunk the truth?

In this day and age there is absolutely no reason to hunt. There is no argument!

Take your cash and buy yourselves some big juicy steaks if you have to eat meat--give some of your meat to the poor. Let others enjoy the wildlife--alive.

You people are so brainwashed and so backwards, "Duh, My daddy hunted and so will I" you have no idea how stupid you look to non-hunters.

Maryland is an ignorant state with more rebel flags than the south. You people have muskrat dinners and call them festivals.

What kind of a civilization are we becoming when people celebrate the eating of muskrat?

Put down your guns CC and pick up some books. You can find them at the library.

As far as old CH goes: The man is responsible for human deaths. Every kid who ever got in the back, every kid who every pick up his daddy's pistol and shot himself in the face with it, every jealous husband who took a gun to his wife and/or family--hey, CH is responsible.

He is responsible for the Columbine shootings and every other school shooting. He is responsible for putting guns into the hands of criminals and gangs.

He could have been a real man and spoke out against guns but the money he was getting from the NRA was just too good to pass up.

The man was wrong and so are you.

Posted by: Maggy | April 7, 2008 02:34 PM

I have zero remorse.

Posted by: Ashley | April 7, 2008 02:40 PM

having a look inside here - i have become rare because my naughty son is always downloading viruses with his video games which make the system crash down - i catch the situation: mister cuck is rising - so we all - animalprotectors and animals can sleep well tonight - we are in the best hands!!!

Posted by: FREE TIBET | April 7, 2008 02:40 PM

I would like to think that PETA has a shread of compassion for humans as well as animals. I'm not saying that deer hunting doesn't bother me, but to say "So anyone who’s been patiently waiting in line to try and pry the guns from his cold, dead hands can go ahead and do so now" is terrible. PETA, that is unprofessional and disappointing.

Posted by: Aneliese | April 7, 2008 02:54 PM

Cocky, Cocky - i just can repeat it again and again: Altzheimer disease is an ugly thing - i hope it shall not make you suffer for too much time!!!

Cheers - palaeoliticum is waiting for her children!

Posted by: Old Spiderwoman | April 7, 2008 03:02 PM

MAYA.... how much respect does the coyote have for the cute little kitty cat or puppy dog as it snatches it away in some of the nations suburbs... as less animals are trapped or hunted, the natural equation is screwed up.... so let us show all that repsect to wild animals and leave them alone to overpopulate. then they can die of disease and starvation...thats real respect....

and what does this have to do with charlton heston where the entire common sense world thinks of him as larger than life... does this show you where the rest of the world thinks of animal extremists !!!

and judith.... classy as ever...

Posted by: COMMON SENSE STEVE | April 7, 2008 03:16 PM

Hi Common Sense Steve! ;)

Those are great questions!!

Coyotes are wild canids which rely on a meat-based diet for their survival. They will die without hunting prey. Sadly they are being pusehd out of their territories by development and habitat loss.

They are then forced to hunt and live in the suburbs, killing pets and livestock simply because they have no choice. Whose fault is it? Human's.

Most non-human animals, with the exception of some primates, do not have the ability to place themselves in the mind of another animal. In other words, they do not have the brain function that gives us empathy.

A coyote can not possibly imagine what it's like to be a cat, dog or other animal. Even primates, who have some level of empathetic thinking, do not have nearly the self-control that we have. They are animals. They live in the moment and react.

Sadly people who let cats outdoors and let dogs run loose impose hundreds of risks on their loose pets. Also some people who are missing pets will say a coyote probably killed it, with no proof that one actually did.

Also, hunting does not control overpopulated wildlife; many wild animals can reabsorb their embryos or have extra offspring when they are being hunted, resulting in exactly the same number of offspring either way.

If we had not killed off and extripated the wolves here in New England, we would not have a deer overpopulation problem because wolves kill the very young, sick and old, who are not reproducing. This effectively reduces overpopulation and disease in a way that humans can't.

Natural selection must be accoutned for in nature.

We have a great lack of respect in the face of nature and our Earth, and that's how we got ourselves into this fine environmental mess we're in now.

Anyway, good questions.
Peace! ;)
Maya

Posted by: Maya, CVT | April 7, 2008 04:15 PM

It is not the mosquito "attack" that kills a person with malaria, as they are merely the vector for Plasmodium falciparum, which as you well know causes the malaria infection. Of course, Plasmodium, being a protozoan is technically an animal as well, and one could argue that the bullet, not the human is the killer of the animals. The mosquito, however, unwittingly passes on the infection to a human, whereas the hunter makes a sentient decision to infect the animal with a bullet. Hunting from a human perspective is about sport, not survival, as opposed to the animal kingdom; this can also be attributed to our sapience and creates a distinction between wild animals hunting other wild animals and humans hunting animals.

When taking our technology into account, one could certainly argue that animals are "defenseless" against hunters, as many products (sprays, camo, electronic tracking equipment, high velocity firearms) negate an animal's natural defenses (senses, speed, etc.). Were a human to rely on our "meat-eating" canines and jaw strength to grasp a deer by its neck or wound it with our fingernails (might work in the case of Howard Hughes), I doubt many sets of antlers would adorn many mantles.

Posted by: Derek | April 7, 2008 04:20 PM

This is in response to "Maggie", who posted the following on April 7:

"You people are so brainwashed and so backwards, "Duh, My daddy hunted and so will I" you have no idea how stupid you look to non-hunters.

Maryland is an ignorant state with more rebel flags than the south. You people have muskrat dinners and call them festivals.

What kind of a civilization are we becoming when people celebrate the eating of muskrat?"

You have every right to your opinion Maggie, but nothing about your opinions justifies outright bigotry. You have stereotyped all hunters as stupid red-necks, stereotyped all Marylanders as racists, and twice used the phrase "you people". Then you had the never to sermonize, "What kind of civilization are we becoming...?" If you are capable of a little introspection, perhaps you can acknowledge that bigots such as yourself are a part of the problem.

Posted by: JW | April 7, 2008 04:28 PM

Charlton Heston, responsible for every gun related death in the country! Incredible! I never knew that people STOLE GUNS from store, from each other, and used those stolen guns to kill others with! I never knew that tribal warfare in Africa has developed to the point where they purchase guns manufactured in Europe from European gun runners with which to kill their enemies. I never knew that Charlton Heston was responsible for ANY of that! But now the veil has been lifted from my eyes!

Spare me.

The simple fact is, yes, some people DO overhunt. But guess what? That's AGAINST FEDERAL LAW and has been since the sixties. Without any help from PETA, I might add. I don't think it's any coincidence that the majority of non-PETA America associates PETA with illegal, violent, and often fatal raids on scientific laboratories, pet stores, and throwing red paint at people's clothing without first checking if the clothes in question are actually fur in the first place (A relative of mine was recently painted in Europe. She was wearing winter wear made of polyester lining, designed to resemble fur because it is the most efficient way to keep warmth in and cold and moisture out). And to decry the meat industry as being cruel and unusual. How many PETA members purchase clothes or other items from stores? Either big chains like WalMart or local mom-and-pop stores? Check the label. The ones made in places like China and Palestine? Do you think the workers there are treated well? No, of course they aren't. But do you hear members of PETA standing up to support the underaged, underfed, and undereducated who fill these sweatshops for the sole purpose of making their "employers" a profit by cutting down on manufacturing costs? No, you don't. You hear them screaming about cows and chickens being slaughtered to provide life-giving meat for millions. As a person who has spent much time on commercial farms, and who has also spent much time living well below the poverty line, sleeping in a car that I couldn't afford to fill with gas, and begging passerby for change to buy something to eat, I can tell you this: Set free the cows. Set free the pigs. Set free the chickens. Set free all of the animals destined for the meat plant. And they will all die within a year. They are breeds that cannot survive on their own without the protein enriched food the farmers provide. They would not be able to find shelter during storms, shelter such as that provided by the farmers. The vast majority of them wouldn't even survive long enough to be killed by the natural predators of the world - they would die of exposure, of hunger.

And don't take this as an acceptance of the cruelties of the world. Yes, I know seals are hunted and killed to the point of endangerment. Yes, I know that my fellow Southerners hunt simply for trophies. Yes, I know these things. But I? I am a meat eater. I buy meat from the stores, I buy meat from local hunters. But I first research those hunters. If I see any evidence whatsoever of overhunting or trophy-gathering, I do not only keep my money to myself, I report them to local law enforcement.
But to deny humans the right to hunt, one of the most basic instincts in the human psyche? That in itself should be criminal.

I definitely don't expect anyone who reads this, with the possible exception of CC, to take me seriously or even read a fraction of what I've typed, but I hope some of the fringe do, and I hope they see the reason behind my argument, the logic behind my words.

RIP Charlton, you were a great actor. "People! Soylent Green is made of people!"

Posted by: Allegory to Sanity | April 7, 2008 04:48 PM

Very well said Maya!

Posted by: Jaclyn | April 7, 2008 04:48 PM

Maggy
The people who committed those crimes are the ones responsible for them. I take my cash and spend it on wildlife; thousands of dollars every year. I also read lots of books. Your post typifies the ignorance and elitism of "you people." You are a bigot. You are no better than me or anyone else. If you said "you people" to a black person you would likely offend them. I am not from Maryland, but if I were, I would take your comment as a complement.

Annalenna,
I do not hunt from jeeps or helicopters as it is lazy, unethical, and illegal.

Maya,
Gun totin' wife beatin'? Respectfully, I have no evidence that Mr. Heston ever beat his wife, do you?

Judy,
What is this new fixation on my back end? I'll admit it is my best side, though.

Ashley,
Why would you be remorseful? Did you kill Mr Heston?

Jaclyn,
I am truly sorry for offending you personally. I can only apologize as I am not going to put a perfectly good firearm in my rectum.

Posted by: Christopher Cochran MD | April 7, 2008 04:49 PM

well I for one am glad this rifle enthusiast's hands now are truly 'cold and dead'..
sorry but I'm not for one going around blasting away at animals with pistols OR shotguns.. in fact at anything else for that matter..
RIP CH.. but please.. no more blasting away with those rifles or pistols not at animals, people or any other 'things' even.... presuming hopefully you are 'in heaven'..
You should have known - shooting and killing is a 'no..no'..

Posted by: Ella | April 7, 2008 05:14 PM

Common Sense Steve.
We are incredibly overpopulated as a species and our actions are anything but natural. We are one of the major reasons for unbalance in the world.

Posted by: Annalena | April 7, 2008 05:15 PM

PETA -- your organization does so many great things. Your comments regarding the passing of Charlton Heston I found were in bad taste. There is a "middle" to all the world's madness; which includes the killing of animals for food, etc. The NRA also promotes and stands for the right of every American to bear arms -- the right for a good, honest and law-abiding citizen to protect him or herself. Not just the bad guys with guns.

It's not always about "killing wild deer". What a shame that your article was so shallow and tasteless. It's not always so black and white.

Still a fan and supporter...

M Fagnani
Northern California

Posted by: MFagnani | April 7, 2008 05:18 PM

Pamela L,
I simply can't think of anything else to say about him. I wish Jack would just toss C.C. out with the garbage.
He's useless and pathetic.
Peace Pamela!

Posted by: Judith, Freedom Fighter for Animals | April 7, 2008 05:30 PM

Not anything to do with Charlton Heston, but if what PETA stands for makes you angry, then maybe you should be looking at a different site.

Posted by: Michelle | April 7, 2008 05:41 PM

CCochran talks so much green bile PUKE.. I can't even be bothered to respond in length to his regergitated vomit.. that animals suffer pain but not in sense of 'suffering'.. as the same as humans.. What NERD planet does this NERD come from?.. what an absolute BILE puke of a remark!?
what an absolute MORON!!
it's people liek this who inflict the most terrible suffering to animals because they have this prehistoric notion that animals 'can't suffer' 'not like us humans'..
what absolute ROT!.. so much for his 'MD' - he has as much 'intelligence' as a dead amoeba as far as I'm concerned..

Posted by: EllaC | April 7, 2008 05:46 PM

Not to change the subject, but are there any animal rights protests planned around the passing of the Olympic Torch here? The British and the French have set the protest standards pretty high over the past two days!

PS--Heston was absolutely nuts, as anyone who watched "Bowling For Columbine" can attest to.

Posted by: Kelley | April 7, 2008 05:49 PM

yeah CH was an american icon of sorts, and exemplifies everything that is wrong with america today. anyone that believes that anyone has a fundamental right to own a gun has some serious problems dealing with reality. You don't have to look at all the tragic homocide statistics by firearm in this country to see why this is wrong.

Posted by: vegancoin | April 7, 2008 06:11 PM

Boo!

Posted by: Curtis | April 7, 2008 06:49 PM

I live in deep Northern Wisconsin. All through middle/high school, all classes were cancelled for deer opener and you cannot throw a stone without hitting a poor, defenseless deer that has been strapped to the back of some random truck. It's sickening. Being that I am very much the minority where I live, I love seeing other people support anti-hunting thoughts. And, that was the greatest joke ever about cold/dead hands. I usually don't laugh out loud but couldn't help it.

Posted by: Veronica | April 7, 2008 08:49 PM

Now, if we could just get rid of Ted Nugent........

Common Sense Steve: The most overpopulated animal on the planet is the human being. If we could learn to limit our own population, we wouldn't have to worry about killing animals because there would be plenty of room for everyone.

Posted by: Antigone1000 | April 7, 2008 09:34 PM

Hunt hard! Eat meat! and Rip CH!

Posted by: Drew McGraw | April 7, 2008 11:41 PM

Cochran thinks that animals can "experience pain" but not "suffer" from it which is really a tour de force of mental gymnastics. He doesn't offer a shred of evidence for this position, just an opinion.
If he were aware of field research (which animal abuse supporters somehow never are) he would know that animals can experience many emotions, and some know awareness and even self awareness. Given this, it is obvious that animals can suffer.
But, of course, denying animal capabilities enables people like Cochran to continue hunting, vivisecting, etc.

Posted by: Patricia Panitz | April 8, 2008 01:06 AM

Ohhh, so you're above making light of Britney Spears', because that would be wrong, but it's perfectly okay to make light of a dead man?
Right.... way to improve public image!

Posted by: AnimalLib | April 8, 2008 04:06 AM

Its to bad no one shot him. He could have felt what it is like to die by a gun since he was so trigger happy. People like him make me sick. See ya in the afterlife asshole. No animal deserves to be shot! I dont even blame animals anymore for attacking people. I would if I was being hunted & treated bad. People need to stop all of the abuse and killings. Its so stupid. No wonder why half of the assholes who do this raise children who beat and kill people. Showing no respect and consideration for anything is just pathetic. People need to grow up.

Posted by: karla | April 8, 2008 07:41 AM

Antigone, I most definitely agree that the human animal is the most overpopulated animal on this planet. Humans, as smug as they may be are still at the mercy of the laws of nature and unfortunately will likely have some sort of catastrophic die-off at some point. If cow farts are ruining the air, I can only imagine what the gasses of humanity are doing.
I also agree that Judith can't think of anything to say. I am happy I am a member of the half of the assholes who do not raise their children to beat and kill people. Half, who knew?
People, please don't tell my wife she married a NERD!!! She thought she married an Alpha Beta!

Posted by: Christopher Cochran MD | April 8, 2008 10:43 AM

Good Golly

PETA your logic is simplistic. Your attitude is crass. Heston had Alzheimers and he was diagnosed before Bowling for Columbine was released. Moore knew that he was shooting fish in a barrel so to speak and people who continue to call Heston 'nuts' etc are only adding to that cruelty. Furthermore, it sounds as if most of your knowledge comes from the arguments of Bowling for Columbine but you failed to understand the real message of the doc. Moore does not have a problem with gun ownership. He owns guns. He has a problem with an overly militaristic society where CHILDREN can get guns.

The truth is that there are a lot of gun owners out there who DON'T HUNT. At most they are collectors of an un-PC item. Most of the rabid NRA freaks that I personally know haven't hunted in fifty years. They are concerned, however, about protecting their property and family.

Guess what? I don't eat meat, wear animal products, volunteer with an animal group AND I LIKE GUNS.

So stick that in your pipe and smoke it you ill-informed, pedantic hippies.

Posted by: geogbitch | April 8, 2008 10:45 AM

CC I was not speaking directly of you as I do not know a lot about you. Aerial hunting is allowed up north in areas of Alaska and elsewhere.Wolves are the usual target.Trophy hunting takes place in Africa in Jeeps and other vehicles. These practices are not outlawed everywhere. As Derek said I may have a little more respect for hunters who rely on their teeth and nails. There is nothing admirable about the ability to pull a trigger at an unsuspecting animal from a safe distance.

Posted by: Annalena | April 8, 2008 11:04 AM

Chris,

Of all people I did not expect you to take my comment so literally. I never accused Heston of beating his wife. I simply meant, symbolically, that the NRA and front and center hunters often promote the image of disrespecting women and sentient beings.

The animal rights movement owes a lot to the civil rights and women's rights movement. Certain groups in our country right now are setting back the clock to the Dark Ages. You know exactly what I'm talking about, Chirs.

Allegory to Sanity - great handle.

Respectfully, if hunting were such a strong instinct, it would be much more common than it is. Most of my collegues, friends, family members, classmates have no interest in it. I've never even picked up a gun.

I won't ever defend PETA's often offensive actions, but as someone who has cared for pets and wildlife, I can tell you that we need groups like PETA to change society's attitude towards animals.

For every idyllic humane farm, well treated pet or worry free wild animal, there are millions of abused factory farm animals, feral cats living in hell on the streets, and wildlife losing habitat and suffering oil spills, fishhooks in the intestines, canned hunts, etc etc.

I completely understand your frustration with PETA, and I share it as well. But we need to put aside those feelings when we ask ourselves if the animals don't deserve a bit better from us. I'm sure you and I agree on that.

;) Peace.

Posted by: Maya, CVT | April 8, 2008 11:58 AM

Derek,
You make good points. Hunting isn't easy, in fact, it is quite challenging. Many of the products you mention have been developed in an effort to bag hunters more than prey. I have always believed, for instance, that fishing lures are designed to catch fisherman. Despite all our leaps in hunting tech, we are unsuccessful the majority of the time we spend hunting. The people who give hunting a black eye with canned hunts are doing so because, like many of us, they have become impatient in a ready made drive-thru world. I have found that the more complicated a hunters kit, the less likely that hunter is much of a hunter at all. At it's purest hunting is still largely luck and is slightly improved by skill and patience.
Deaths from malaria result indirectly from attacks by mosquitos. If a person died from an infected dog bite, he would still have died from a dog attack. This is splitting hairs perhaps and the "mental gymnastics" are no worse than claiming milk causes infertility or impotence.

Posted by: Christopher Cochran MD | April 8, 2008 12:17 PM

Thank you Jaclyn ;)

Posted by: Maya, CVT | April 8, 2008 12:21 PM

Planet of the Apes is my all-time favourite film.

In fact, as a very young child, when being a vegetarian (though that word wasn't actually used) was akin to being some kind of freak -- this film seemed to cement w/in me the notion that treating animals so brutally and eating them was just not "right" (a childish term, word I know).

This film made it very easy for me to wonder why it was OK for humans to do these things to animals ... esp. when you saw how the same treatment affected "Taylor". The brutality, the objectification, the experimentation, etc. Perhaps Heston took the cinematic experience too far i.e. wanted to ensure that the tables would never be turned in such a manner (the "animals" the "others" in control of His destiny) and ergo his NRA obsession?

Still, in his own strange way, despite his real-life love of violence and weapons, Heston helped to make at least one person choose a different path in life.

Posted by: Barbara | April 8, 2008 02:37 PM

Some pro-hunting types here keep changing the subject. Let's get back on track here, okay?

I grew up with hunters in my home town in New Hampshire. Yes, some hunters are also great land conservationists; some grew up hunting and fishing with their dads, formed a strong family bond and some as adults even go out to hunt without killing anything.

Pro-animal folks should talk with some hunters to understand the culture, and that they aren't all evil monstors.

Pro-hunting folks, similarly should try to focus: put aside the extremist PETA comments, and get real.

Thousands of endangered species, migratory birds, etc etc are illegally hunted. Many hunted animals who escape die slowly from nasty bullet wounds. As a rehabber I saw first hand what a fish hook in a bird's intestines can do. It's a tough way to die, and it's from carelessness.

In my area alone, one single pissed off trout farmer killed hundreds of migratory birds. He was caught, but many others are not.

http://www.fws.gov/home/feature/2007/conviction.pdf

Trapping, hunting and fishing has its ugly side. I'm sure we can at least shake hands over the idea that a decent hunter will devote him or herself to vigillance against illegal and unethical activity. Can we start there?

Posted by: Maya, CVT | April 8, 2008 02:56 PM

Maya,
I can find no evidence that the NRA has any such promotion or denegration as it were of women. My own mother (yes, even I have a mother) is a member. Are you sure you are not succumbing to the media perpetuated stereotype of the Southern/Midwestern White male. Do you think we are all named "Earl" or "Bubba?" Of course not because that would be bigotry and in all sincerity you are smarter than that. There are bad actors on both sides of this argument, but like most things most of us are bent toward the middle with suprisingly common goals. I visited your beautiful state last Fall and found the people to be delightful. I don't know why I was suprised; perhaps I harbored a stereotype of the New Englander that was incorrect as well.

AnnaLena,
Your "tooth and fang" argument has been explored and is intriguing. To ask a human animal to hunt without tools is exactly like declawing a cat or pulling out a dogs teeth and asking it to hunt. Humans (H. sapiens) thrived as a species not because of any below the neck marvel (save for our thumbs), rather our relatively large brains which allow us to use tools. Our tool use allowed us to be effective hunters where we were not before. The added protein and fats in our diet helped us to thrive as a species and to be able to move into temperate and subarctic regions of the world. Humans as a species are no more intended to hunt without tools than wolves are with them. We are certainly designed to hunt and eat meat, but our tool use is our evolutionary advantage. Tool use is our tooth and fang. When people have to hunt for food they will use the easiest and most effective harvesting tool at their disposal. Now that that is not the case in the US, many hunters scale back their approach because some modern hunting has become unchallenging and boring, they feel. I am speaking of the growing bow hunting crowd. I do not particularly like to bow hunt as I do not prefer large game hunting, and I do not like the increased odds (though still small) of wounding an animal. However, there is a lot more to it than walking into the woods and lowering the boom on some unsuspecting animal with an artillery battery. If you ever did it, hunting, I mean, and I am not asking you to of course, you would have a better understanding. Your points are good, though.

Posted by: Christopher Cochran MD | April 8, 2008 03:40 PM

Christopher,

As a fellow physician, I appreciate that your input is well-thought out, although I do not agree with your viewpoints, and welcome the opportunity for civilized debate. In fact, it was several of your posts that motivated me to start posting on this site, albeit on the opposite side of your opinions.

That said, I believe that Charlton Heston's message (along with the misunderstood and misused Second Amendment) belongs buried six feet under, but I do not celebrate the death of the man.

Posted by: Derek | April 8, 2008 04:20 PM

CC...I am not an extremist, and actually believe that hunting is more humane than factory farming if one feels they must eat meat. However, I am completely mystified as to why you would think that animals are not capable of feeling negative emotions associated with suffering? In addition, you attempt to state this as fact, not as an offbeat opinion with no scientific rigor or evidence in which to back it up. Given that you felt the need to inform us that you are an MD, I would expect, at the very least, that you would understand that perhaps animals relay their emotions in different ways than sapiens, which does not mean they are not capable of feeling emotions similar to that as humans. As well, perhaps animals feel completely different, yet just as intense and negative emotions as humans. I'm just wondering why you would think that you are so all-knowing when evidence is emerging that clearly indicates that your comments are not true - it definitely degrades the validity of all of your comments.

Posted by: Dr. Jennifer Maxon | April 8, 2008 06:36 PM

Christopher Cochran: Please don't ever agree with me again. I have a reputation to protect.

Posted by: Antigone1000 | April 8, 2008 07:35 PM

I detest hunting and never would do it, however if they hunt and eat the animal as sick as that sounds, how is it any different from anyone who goes to the store to buy meat. Personally, my goal is to be a vegetarian so I don't have to feel immense guilt from eating something that died violently. Absolutely unacceptable are "canned hunts" where the animals aren't really "hunted" but boxed in and shot. That takes a real man to shoot something that way -- not! I encourage everyone who hates hunting to call their local cable channel and ask them to remove that Outdoor channel that always shows two rednecks sneaking up on some elk, deer, etc. minding their own business in the woods! I don't want to pay to have that crap on tv! I loved the video of the deer that beat the crap out of the hunter. If that could only happen more often...

Posted by: April | April 8, 2008 10:49 PM

As a conservative and a member of PETA I'm a bit of an "oxymoron." For some reason people usually associate liberals with animal rights, but not conservatives. I admit, it used to be that way more often, but not anymore. Many Republicans file legislation that protects animals. It's sad when emotional issues like animal rights gets too political. I wish people wouldn't bash Mr. Heston. I'm no NRA fan, but I don't think bashing him after he's dead is classy either. He was a very decent man, so please stop the bashing.

Posted by: April | April 8, 2008 10:55 PM

to: Maya, CVT -- very well stated. It's so simple but the world is filled with a lot of idiots who care about nothing except themselves.

Posted by: April | April 8, 2008 10:57 PM

let him rest in peace. he suffered from alzheimers. besides PETA isnt about punishing people or relishing in their deaths.

Posted by: CATHIE YORK | April 9, 2008 11:33 AM

Since when is scientific evidence mandatory on this website? If the PCRM qualifies as science, then I feel like we all have carte blanche to say what we like an label it fact.
I never said animals do not suffer. My implication is that given our largely developed ability to know, that we are much better at suffering than any other animal in the world. Lucky us. This is my opinion, but I didn't just fall off the turnip truck.

Posted by: Christopher Cochran MD | April 9, 2008 12:33 PM

Dr. Jennifer Maxon: thank you so much for your intelligent comment; i see that we can still find upright people with a high IQ on this blog!!!!!!! God bless you and FREE TIBET!

Posted by: animalfriend | April 9, 2008 12:47 PM

Derek and Dr. Jennifer Maxon: i really enjoy newcomers like you on this site! You have a postitive clear message for everyone of us! May other 'degree-keepers' learn from your wise and loving comments!

Posted by: Mister Jingles | April 9, 2008 04:45 PM

April,
When this man was living he partook in some very unethical projects.
I remember watching him give a speech in Colorado about 5 days after the horrific shooting. Saying some awful things when moms and dads had just lost their children.
Everytime there was a shooting at a school the NRA group along with Heston showed up and said there is nothing wrong with our guns.
There were people there that hunted but were absolutely BLOWN away by this group of misguided individuals. Many exited the NRA because of this. And to hear what the conservative side said
was nothing less than criminal.
You and your group of neo-cons, and that includes YOU are morally bankrupt.
Peace!!!!!

Posted by: Judith, Freedom Fighter for Animals | April 9, 2008 06:04 PM

Chris, I agree and I don't mean to generalize. My real focus of disgust is towards the current administration who is the first to delist more species than add to the ES list, and to threaten into silence scientists on global warming and evolution. Dangerous.

I assume the NRA folks are mostly republican - there's the connection.

If people were just hunting and fishing for survival, as tribal folks do, I would have much less of a problem with it.

As others said, canned hunts, leghold traps, hooks in the intestines of wetland birds, bagging wildlife by helicopter, general disregard of the most simple ethical considerations - that's what bothers me.

You're obviously thoughtful about these issues, or else you wouldn't be reading this blog. I think that's a positive thing.

ps Glad you liked my home state - the hiking is great here. ;)

Posted by: Maya, C.V.T. | April 9, 2008 07:26 PM

Dr. Jennifer Maxon
A brilliant post. Thank you for coming on this site!

Posted by: lynda downie | April 9, 2008 11:54 PM

Derek and Antigone 1000 -good strong points!

Posted by: lynda downie | April 10, 2008 12:05 AM

I don't understand the mind of someone who takes satisfaction in taking aim and in an instant ends the charged vigorous life of another animal.

Posted by: lynda downie | April 10, 2008 12:39 AM

Shocking. To celebrate the death of a human being is disgusting. I came on this website to see how I can help the fight against clubbing seals and this is what I find. I think I'll join the NRA instead.

Posted by: Rest In Peace C.H. | April 10, 2008 05:00 AM

And with all that's been said...

Whoever has the cure for chronic wasting disease, please raise your hand.

Posted by: Tabitha | April 10, 2008 09:45 AM

I saw this documentary on my special channels today called (I am an animal). I have to say it was one of the most horrific things I have seen ever, my mother and I were crying so hard in hurt and anger.
I wish I could torture these people exactly the same way they were doing to these animals.
I have no remorse for humans that inflict pain and suffering to animal, I would have no mercy on them.
I was wondering, these farmers that hit these poor animal and abuse them, what exactly happened to them, was there an arrest, protest , further investigations , prosecuted and etc, I just want to know what happened to these people, did they pay for what they did or not.
I live in Canada, and hate that fact only because I am sick of the winter and the Seal hunt, and there is not any thing we can do except protest and petition. The Government couldn’t care less because the seals and their fur go over to America and China, and it helps their economy or whatever.
In term of puppymils if cruelty that was shown on the Oprah show last week is shown on TV, the humane society or the SPCA step in and seize these animals, probably euthanizing most of them anyways.
What happens in the US? Why don’t people go and protest this with the farmers and do something about this, what can be done about these people who do that to the animals like the guy who was continuously beating the pig with what appeared to be bat or something.
I get discouraged sometimes and don’t know if this is ever going to change.
Please answer my question (regarding the people in the documentary) and also thank you for all that you have done and are doing.

Joanna karapetian

Posted by: joanna karapetian | April 10, 2008 12:07 PM

CC
I agree with Maya above.
I was not being completely literal with my tooth and nails comment. I was mostly expressing my frustration with some of the disgusting trophy and canned hunts I have seen. I read a long National Geographic artical called "Shameful Harvest" about these types of hunting techniques the other day and the photos were horrible. I understand that our brains and tool making/using ability is what makes us human. Otherwise we are at quite a disadvantage physically. I have never pulled a trigger myself but my brother is a weapons collector. He does not hunt but I have witnessed his target practice. We had some hunters as neighbours until last year. They were trophy hunters who often brought over hunting magazines and videos which disgusted me. The other day I was walking home through the mall after high school and this hunter approached me. I was watching Koi fish in the malls pond. He asked me if I "was looking for dinner" and proceeded to tell me about all of his hunting trips in a crude way and was asking me personal information. I have mostly had negative encounters with hunters but I know that not all hunters are equal. I become very disgusted when I see people sitting on dead animals,smirking,posing and holding the poor creatures head up. I find it disturbing that people would take that kind of pleasure in killing. I find hunting to be rather pointless for people who do not have to hunt in order to survive. Animal carnivores can not make the choice to not eat flesh and kill, and they do so without malice or sadistic delight. As human beings we can choose and as moral beings I think we should avoid any killing whenever possible.

Posted by: AnnaAnnalena | April 10, 2008 12:11 PM

Being an animal lover, animal rights and animal well-being is something that I have supported and fought for all my life. It is one of the main reasons I decided to become part of the veterinary profession. I have always valued animal life and I strive to give animals the best life possible. That being said, the life of a human is always more important than that of an animal. I would test/kill thousands of animals if it meant a cure for Alzheimer's, AIDs, cancer, MS, or any other disease that plagues humanity. Alzheimer's is a horrible disease for which there is no cure. It's not content taking one’s life, but first it robs a person of their memories, family, sanity and anything else that is familiar and dear. To make fun of, or degrade a man, who has had to suffer with this disease is unacceptable. PETA is supposed to stand for "People for the ethical treatment of Animals". Humans are animals, so how is it that instead of having compassion for a fellow human, you can be so cold-hearted. PETA was founded on good intentions and for the right reasons, but unfortunately the organization has lost its way. All the good that the organization does is too often overlooked because of some of the member's hatred and far off ideals. As far as hunting and gun rights go: Charlton Heston was a true patriot and stood up for what the constitution was founded upon. Regardless of your position on guns, if our rights to bear arms was taken away what would be next? Where does it stop? While not a hunter myself, I understand ecology and thus understand the need for hunting. There are many areas of the country where deer for example are extremely overpopulated. When this happens, it’s not only the weak/lame animals that suffer, but also the strong animals with the best genetics. If you have never seen an animal or person for that matter, suffer from starvation, let me stress how painful and awful it is to witness them slowly die from lack of nutrition. It is most certainly more humane to give a quick death. Also, because of overpopulation, deer tend to migrate to human areas where they destroy crops that we(esp. vegetarians) eat, as well as causing car accidents that kill innocent men, women and children. Hunting is a means to help combat both of these problems. Instead of attacking a defenseless dead man, PETA needs to get back to the important issues such as fur and unnecessary animal testing and actually make a difference in the lives of animals.

Shame on you Judith and Pamala for being so hateful, you are coldhearted and you represent the worst of mankind. If you or any in your family ever had to suffer with Alzheimers, you would understand how sad a disease it is. I truly hope you never have to go through it. And Kelly, if you believe all the propaganda that comes out of Michael Moore's mouth, I have some ocean front property in Arizona i would love to sell you.

Posted by: Walker | April 10, 2008 02:59 PM

Mr Cochran's comments certainly invite criticism and comment - so I won't do either. I know how I feel about all animals and the fact that they do not receive the fair treatment they should have. I know that humans don't receive fair treatment either but all we can do is keep trying. I have 8 rescued dogs and one of them had to be euthanased this week through his diabetes of 8 years going completely out of control. I have to be very careful not to fall in the wide gaping hole in my life at the moment. I doubt Mr Cochran has ever known what that sort of love and loss feels like.

Posted by: Lesley Robinson (Mrs) | April 10, 2008 03:09 PM

Ya know, there are many a prisoners on "death" row awaiting execution. Why, not test on them instead of animals? are they not human? As for hunting, if it were up to me, you would be given a hunting license if you could survive, as the deer and other animals, in the woods with someone hunting you, for a week. As far as a life of a human being more important then an animal? Didn't someone just say a human is an animal? And NO a human life IS NOT, in my eyes, more important then an animal. I have yet to see one animal create a war, I have yet to see one animal turn it's back on it's family. If I, I am sure others think the same way, had a choice I would gladly live the rest of my life with animals and to hell with most people!! Hunting, killing, uncaring, unsympathetic, that's what humans (98 percent) are. And as far as animals being overpopulated, do we hunt "humans" because of overpopulation? Hmm, maybe they should.

Posted by: Pam | April 10, 2008 03:28 PM

Walker gives offers good points here.
I cared for my mother who had Alzheimer's for 10 years, she died at home with me.
Its wrong to put out such negative remarks about this man who lived his life as best he knew to live it. His truth may not be your truth or my truth. But it was a sign of the times, and he did what he thought was right. Not what you thought was right, but what he thought was right.
Its time to move on now.
A time for peace, I swear it's not too late.

Posted by: Holly | April 10, 2008 03:31 PM

Pam,

So you are telling me, that if you, your son, daughter, brother, sister, mother or father was dying of a disease and you were offered the choice of a rabbit, rat, dog, cat, etc dying instead of your loved one you would honestly look them in the eye and say "Im sorry but this animals life is more important than yours". If you answer yes to this question you are a complete liar, and if you are telling the truth, well im glad I was fortunate enough to not have a crazy ass person like you for a mother.

Posted by: walker | April 10, 2008 04:38 PM

Time to give it up Christopher "Cock"ran MD. You've been beaten down badly on this blog based on the vast majority of comments. Also, please drop the "MD" we really don't care what your occupation is nor what educational achievements you may possess.

Posted by: John | April 10, 2008 04:39 PM

Of course animals are defenceless when they are faced with hunters with guns! A human would be for that matter if they were faced with someone with a gun on them and they werent armed ... You say that because Peta regards them as defenceless they are claiming that animals are stupid and weak???? No they are not. Clearly, it is you that doesn't understand. You say they are cunning, fast and camoflauged? How does that make them able to completely defend themselves against a gun that can fire after them?? Please THINK a bit more about what you are saying! How on earth you can not regard them as defenceless against guns is truly ridiculous?????

Posted by: LIndy | April 10, 2008 05:00 PM

To CC.....Animals are defenceless when they are faced with hunters with guns! A human would be for that matter if they were faced with someone with a gun on them and they werent armed ... You say that because Peta regards them as defenceless they are claiming that animals are stupid and weak???? No they are not. Clearly, it is you that doesn't understand. You say they are cunning, fast and camoflauged? How does that make them able to completely defend themselves against a gun that can fire after them?? Please THINK a bit more about what you are saying! How on earth you can not regard them as defenceless against guns is truly ridiculous?????

Posted by: LIndy | April 10, 2008 05:01 PM

Walker,
You are a dangerous human being.
Anyone that can ok what C.H. did after every school shooting
is a person who is morally banckrupt. You make me sick to my stomach.
And Pamela is one of the most beloved posters on this site.
Now, go back to your Bushie folks and do his bidding.
Peace!!!

Posted by: Judith, Freedom Fighter for Animals | April 10, 2008 05:02 PM

walker:
such people as you are i don't consider as animal protectors or friends - you are just a vivisectioning jerk with a dirty mouth!

Posted by: little big woman | April 10, 2008 05:11 PM

Isn't it a shame that people with no respect for animals don't recognize the unconditional love a dog or cat or any loved animal can give .. this tells us plenty about their black hearts. I suspect they respect people even less, they just can't suit up and put a bullet between the eyes of a human or their neighbours .. well, not without repercussions.

As for Heston, don't get too comfy. I'm sure another man or woman just like him will fill the position soon.

If people were humane and not so self-centred and greedy this world would be a whole lot better.

Posted by: Jayne | April 10, 2008 05:11 PM

Charlton Heston was a SICK man and perhaps now he is put out of his misery Anyone that promotes the use of arms is dangerous to everybody including themselves. We need to promote compassion, not guns.

Posted by: deborah van damme | April 10, 2008 05:13 PM

Hunting defenseless animals? Not a problem. Just go out there hand to paw with them. Make it an even and fair fight.
I'll most likely root for the animal, since they'll be fighting back against an aggressor who's there for the joy of fighting.

Posted by: Vicky | April 10, 2008 05:14 PM

You guys are hilarious, CCMD is shot down and accused of being a fraud despite being a bonafide Dr, yet "Dr" Maxon is embraced to the opposite extreme with absolutely no obvious backup to her claim to be a Dr. I wonder why that is?

Posted by: rojo | April 10, 2008 05:45 PM

Maybe he suffered from Alzheimer's because of karma...

Posted by: Antigone1000 | April 10, 2008 06:11 PM

The fame and celebrity of Charlton Heston makes him and his passing an easy target. Don't be so shallow, PETA. There are millions of anonymous hunters out there whose death(s) would not elicit a word from you. It's true that Heston's celebrity may (or may not) have encouraged others to hunt, and given some credence to the NRA. But it's also true that the more you yourself feed on his celebrity, the more you buy into popular culture and reduce the time you spend on much more important and real animal advocacy issues. Don't get in bed with populist and popular culture. Don't waste your time on headlines only "People" magazine would use: continue being PETA, ahead of the game and wiser than most. Cynthia

Posted by: Cynthia D'Errico, M.A. | April 10, 2008 07:10 PM

I was wondering what might be posted about CH. Figured I was the only one old enough who remembered his raising a gun and defending death, like Saddam Hussein, crulety, etc. The death of any person is sad to many. Pity to his family who had to live with such a controlling and misguided person.

Posted by: Barbi Sare | April 10, 2008 11:52 PM

to Posted by: AnnaAnnalena | April 10, 2008 12:11 PM
You are obviously not an "animal lover", and I am so glad you are not part of my veterinary staff.

Posted by: Barbi Sare | April 11, 2008 12:00 AM

Walker, why was it you went into veterinary medicine again??? just checkin'

Posted by: lynda downie | April 11, 2008 12:18 AM

Some rather interesting comments on here. They seem to run the entire spectrum from entirely rational and well thought out to a bit crazy and rather hateful. Well, here's my two cents: I've never known or even met Charlton Heston, so I cannot, with any amount of accuracy, say much about what kind of person he was. I can say I was less than fond of his public persona as NRA spokesman, and that is what I feel people are attacking him for. I'm ambivalent about the NRA. I don't hunt or fish, as I consider both dull and cruel. However, having lived in many dangerous neighborhoods surrounded by dangerous humans, I'm glad that I can legally own guns. I've owned a number of semiautomatic handguns and shotguns, but I've never shot a single animal or person. I don't want to generalize about all hunters, though I personally consider recreational hunting pointless and inherently cruel. I've just never figured out what is so exciting or rewarding about "outsmarting" a deer, and especially a fish of all things, unless you're Tom Hanks in Castaway.
What I've learned about industrialized meat production from PeTA, among other sources, has led me to remove mammals and birds from my diet. Not everyone who owns firearms kills animals nor ever intends to. Hunting and the second ammendment are not one and the same.
And as far as Charlton Heston is concerned, he is fair game for parody and satire since he has chosen to live in the public eye and use his fame and fortune to take a stance on a relatively volatile issue. The first ammendment is just as, if not even more important, than the second. So, whether tasteful or not, Mr. Heston is fair game (no pun intended). Having suffered from Alzheimer's shouldn't afford him any special protection from those who happen to disagree with him. Suffering from a disease is not a source of redemption for one's errors, whether actual or perceived. Chronic hereditary disease has left me disabled, but that doesn't mean I deserve any special treatment, especially if I decide to debate people on what some consider sensitive issues. I'm sure someone will be angry about something I say here. They should feel free to respond as they choose. And to be honest, he did set himself up for this with the whole "cold dead hands" catch-phrase. I know it's in poor taste, but that doesn't mean it can't be funny.
Ronald Reagan had Alzheimer's. Dick Cheney has had four heart attacks. George W. Bush must suffer from at least mild brain-damage. None of these ailments change the fact that these assholes and their beliefs and policies caused untold suffering and misery for countless pissed-off individuals, and allowing them to hide behind an unfortunate diagnosis is unwarranted. Charlton Heston is no sacred cow. And if he was, at least one of his followers would probably shoot, mount, and eat him. Take care folks! :P

Posted by: Luke | April 11, 2008 12:19 AM

I am an animal lover and 3 years ago I moved back to the midwest from the west coast. I had been away 16 years. I didnt realize how dangerous it was for motorist to be driving with all the deer on the roadways. While coming home on the interstate one night the speed limit is 65, a deer was right in the middle of the road I had to swerve to avoid hitting it. If another motorist had been to my left I probably could have killed or seriously injured myself or them". I have also felt sad about deer hunters in the past but with all the deer on the interstates they are causing accidents and people are being seriously injured or killed. One night coming home my mom and I counted 4 deer on the left side of the road and 2 on the right. I just drive slow at night on the regular roads but on the interstate you have to go 65 because semi trucks are behind you. Youll never know the fear of having a big buck run right in front of your car untill you experiance it for yourself. You will total your whole car. Also during mating season they call it being in rut a male deer will try to kill you if you get near their mate . they will gore you with thier antlers or kick your face in and thier hooves are as sharp as knives." So what can we do I bought the deer whistles that go on the car. there supposed to make a noise to keep the deer away not sure if they work or not but I try my best not to hit them and I dont hunt, however it scares me to drive when the deer are out. P.s. I am sad about Charelton Heston I enjoyed his acting in the Moses movie and so many more. I think to myself another legend is gone and its very sad I feel for his family.

Posted by: Sheri | April 11, 2008 05:29 AM

Wow! I am new to the blog scene and am surprised at the amount of rudeness between people! We are brought up to believe we have an opinion and right to air it. That is, of course until it is an unpopular one or not quite "PC". Some of you are really humourous (in a good way). My opinion, for what its worth? Humans are a sad bunch, we are greedy, cruel and we are overpopulating this stunningly beautiful world to extinction. We are by no manner or means more important than animals. We have elevated our status to the detriment of this planet. If we were to go hunt for our daily meals there would be no need for unbearably cruel abbatoirs. But then, being greedy, some have abused that to the point where hunting is banned and controlled. Wild Animals become a 'problem' because they are squeezed out of their own homes owing to our burgeoning populations. I can't condone animal testing in any form. Our bad lifestyle habits are not their problem. The animals in the wild are not 'defenseless',no, they are eminently suited to their role in the bigger scheme of the ecology but they are defenseless against our rifles and population numbers. This is a subject that could fill libraries and sadly, in the meantime, with all our debating, atrocities against animals continue.

Posted by: Carly | April 11, 2008 07:34 AM

just want to comment on the aids comment...aids was a created virus for the purpose of ending life...there are several books written on this all government documents not just opinions..I am for not killing animals but we still live in a society who does not like to recognize truth when it comes to genocide...every species on earth is sacred and should be respected, hopefully when we stop being in denial we can go forward and stop killing period.

Posted by: Barbara Schweihs | April 11, 2008 11:45 AM

Well said I have to say well said!!

Posted by: Charlene | April 11, 2008 01:02 PM

Man thinkin its superior is the problem, I hate this "We are man we own this earth crap".

I agree the food chain is the food chain, animals will eat us and we eat them, and they will eat eachother.

But its animals being killed in cruel circumstances, living their lives couped up in cages, and in small spaces with thousands of other animals, being killed no matter how old they are, chickens getting their beaks cut off.

And of course the most cruel, because it is so unnessasary of them all hunting and killing for fur.

Posted by: Charlene | April 11, 2008 01:12 PM

Personally, I have no problem with Peta's summarization of CH. He seemed to personify evil. I'm sure he had a fan base but I found him reprehensible.

Posted by: lam3036 | April 11, 2008 03:05 PM

you people are crazed. heston didn't cause school shootings, no morally bankrupt children did. anyway, more people die from abortions than shootings. still outraged about that? no, that would go against your world view. animials need to be hunted in order to control populations. there are more white-tail deer now, than before the mayflower arrived. elk as well. this is a threat to the environment. so they have to be killed. simple as that.

Posted by: jake | April 11, 2008 03:38 PM

I grew up in a small mining town surrounded by the stereotypical "redneck" hunter. What I saw was very disturbing in that the vast majority of them were incredibly inept with their weapon of choice be it a gun or a bow-and-arrow. I only knew of a few that actually went out prior to hunting season and checked the accuracy of their equipment by going to a shooting range and sighting them in. It also became very apparent that by the time they bought guns, ammo, gas, camping supplies, and the ten flats of beer and other refreshments, that they weren't hunting because they "needed to feed their families". It would have cost them far more to go hunting than it would have to go shopping! I spent a lot of time in the bush (wildlife work related) and saw many wounded animals with gunshot wounds, and animals walking (or limping) around with arrows sticking out of them. I have met a lot of hunters in my life and came to respect only a handful of them. It is flat out frightening when I think of high powered weapons in the hands of inexperienced and inept hunters, but anybody can hunt, with few exceptions!!!. These are not highly trained people for the most part! I am not for killing animals but at least there is the opportunity for humane treatment in a controlled environment. And for you CC: Take a look at the video on the fur trade in China narrated by the former Mrs. McCartney. When you come to the part where the animal (can't tell what it is) that has been SKINNED ALIVE and is laying on a pile of carcasses, lifts its head and looks around (yes it still has its eyes) TELL ME THAT ANIMAL IS SUFFERING LESS THAN YOU OR I WOULD.

Posted by: DD | April 11, 2008 05:21 PM

I hunt. We have to. We went a few year with out hunting and deer were wondering into our yard, thin, malnourished. They were all over the roads and falling dead. Killed by cars and the lack of food and hard winters. So now, we hunt. We kill the older deer. We use every piece of them & donate much of it to those who are hungry. It is better than the cattle from the store or chicken from McD's.

The deer herd is now very healthy & happy.

I love deer. I love to see them in the woods. I love to see them on my plate.

PS: All of you at PETA realize that hunters brought deer over to populate the states so that the could then hunt them and live. Remember that historical fact?

Feel free to respond, but know that I will never see it. I was only checking PETA to see what you believed about hunting, but now that I know how mistaken your doctrine is, I'll not check back for any more misinformation.

Posted by: Carnivorous | April 11, 2008 05:42 PM

Hello Barbi Sare
I hope you are speaking of
Posted by: Walker | April 10, 2008 02:59 PM.
I can assure you that I love animals!
Great post Luke. I enjoyed reading it.

Posted by: Annalena | April 11, 2008 07:02 PM

Hi all -

Deer are not populated due to nature; deer are overpopulated because we humans killed and extripated their predators (wolves) to the point where they don't have any normal population control.

When humans hunt deer it does not account for natural selection, so the deer are able to have larger litters and the numbers are not reduced.

Right at this point I'd like to say something more profound, but Carly made such a beautiful statement I don't think I could top it.

Carly, I hope you stick around. ;)

Posted by: Maya, CVT | April 12, 2008 10:57 AM

BY THE WAY, GUYS:

There is new technology being developed by biologists that would detect deer (kind of like a motion detector) before they ran out onto a road or highway. It may save lives.

In the meantime, there are deer crossing signs where they are for a reason. Those signs are placed near migration paths for deer and moose - it's to alert motorists to SLOW DOWN!!!

Of course we ignore them, and people get injured or killed. I'm not saying it's possible to avoid them every time, but where I live the speed limits have gone up everywhere and people are driving 70 to 90 on highways. What do you expect?

The fact that the roads and highways have been developed on top of deer migration routes is the fault of humans, not deer.

Slow down, turn off your f***ing cell phones, and watch the road. It will save lives.

Posted by: Maya, CVT | April 12, 2008 11:04 AM

Well, this is sure an interesting & LONG blog! Everyone is entitled to their opinion, whether we agree w/it or not, that is why we live in the good old USA! Please have respect for the dead, you would not want people talking bad about you when you're dead one day. While I don't agree w/the unnecessary violence that firearms can cause, I do feel that a person should have the right to defend themself against others if needed (no, I am not a gun owner). We all know that animals get the short end of the stick more often than not & we all know what we need to do to stop it. Stop eating meat, dairy, animal products in general, buy cruelty free, don't wear animal products, etc, all of which I do as a matter of living the values that I believe in, have done them since being a teenager & making my own decisions. I intend to live a cruelty free lifestyle for the rest of my life! I love that so many of you have a passion for animals & are willing to stand up for them! It makes me proud! There are so many issues out there that effect animals, many of which outrage me. But unfortunately we can only control ourselves & as bad as we may hate how other people live, there's not a lot we can do to change their minds except keep educating them & trying to get them involved to "see the light" & why we believe in what we do. I applaud anyone who is open minded enough to get involved! Keep up the good work! P.S. I would rather see someone who is going to eat meat no matter what to go out into nature & RESPONSIBLY kill an animal than to buy the horribly raised & killed factory farmed products that are available at most stores. These animals suffer unthinkable cruelty that no person would ever be able to endure if put in the animals place. (Charges would be pressed!) Keep up the good fight, good people! :) The animals thank you & they need your continued support!

Posted by: Julie Kozel | April 12, 2008 03:13 PM

Judith,
I have no idea who “bushie folks” are or what your made up word even means. Unlike you, I can think for myself and I do no one’s bidding. You think I am dangerous? I’ll tell you who is really dangerous. People who fail to take responsibility for their own actions and instead blame society or others for horrible crimes that have been committed. There are many people in this world who have grown up in poverty, who were abandoned and/or orphaned, who were loners and who have overcome many hardships in their life to become moral contributing members of society. Anyone that would commit such terrible crimes as the columbine or Virginia tech shootings are sick, disturbed and evil. You can’t blame those deaths on anyone but the sick and twisted individuals who committed them. You can’t blame Charlton Heston or any other gun owner in America for the deaths that evil people commit with guns. In a way u might understand: It would be like blaming and hence trying to destroy every pit-bull just because one mistreated pit-bull attacked someone. Just because one dog attacked someone doesn’t mean that all dogs are dangerous.
Little big woman,
It is ok that you don’t consider me a friend; I realize you can’t be friends with everyone. Just because we may not see eye to eye on every issue doesn’t mean I am the enemy. I donate my time and skills to the local humane society performing free spays and neuters, I am a member of the local IACUC, I have personally housed, fed, and cared for horses, dogs, and cats that were removed from homes in which they were mistreated until they could be adopted out to loving new owners, as well as participated in many wildlife rehabilitations and releases. Just because I have an opinion that is different than yours doesn’t mean I care any less about animals. Also, I am sorry that the word “ass” offended you. If you scroll up and read some of the other posts in this forum, (John refers to someone as a “cock”) or ever watched primetime TV, the word ass is quite mild in comparison.
Charlene,
I understand what you are trying to say but I have to disagree. Humans are superior as we were given morals and the higher reasoning which animals do not possess. It is these two qualities that sets us apart from every other animal species and is thus the reason why their care and well being is our responsibility. Their life is precious and should be treated as such. I do not believe in senseless animal tests for such things as beauty products where animals suffer for no good reason. I do however place a higher value on people and realize that in some instances, animal testing may be required for human medical advancement (or vet medicine). It’s best to understand this concept when you have had a loved one saved because of a noble research animal that gave its life to provide the research necessary to save others.

Posted by: Walker | April 13, 2008 12:45 AM

it just amazes me how all you veggie heads complain about people being overpopulated but yet you do nothing about it how about you all kill yourselves and and put a small dent in the human population and make the world a better place for all of us law abiding citizens.

Posted by: claude | April 13, 2008 01:21 AM

Hi Luke, I read your post about using those deer whistle things. My aunt gave me a few sonar whistles. Are those what you have? As the air goes in, it creates the sonar, and then it gets sent back out. It can alert a deer quite far away that you're coming. And they get off the road. My aunt gave everyone in my family a set. They're really easy to put on the car too.

I also feel it's sad that animal populations get out of balance due to human population. I definitely don't think that a deer overpopulation is any reason to hunt them. I'm deeply saddened that some people think it's appropriate.

These deer whistles or sonar are quite cheap too. I think it could be a good way to avert accidents for both humans and deer.

We must try to love all animals on the planet, humans included. Every animal feels pain. That is a fact.

Posted by: Joey | April 13, 2008 07:27 PM

Walker,
Go somewhere else and try to impress someone that will listen.
You sound like part of the AVMA, and that is an ignorant
and very dangerous group of people for the animals.
There are groups everywhere, so go join them and puff out your chest and speak away!!!!!
I bet you are very much for horse slaughter.
Peace!!!!!

Posted by: Judith, Freedom Fighter for Animals | April 14, 2008 09:15 AM

Walker: In response to your question about whether someone would choose the life of an animal over the life of a loved one, keep this in mind. If I were given the chance to save my child's life by sacrificing yours, if that were a realistic opportunity presented to me, I would absolutely agree to it. If I have to choose between my child and you, I choose my child. Therefore, your question is not really indicative of anything or even a fair question because it does not allow for the fact that most people would choose the life of a loved one over another human being if realistically given that opportunity.

Posted by: Antigone1000 | April 14, 2008 09:21 AM

Of course I’m a member of the AVMA, every respectable practicing veterinarian in the United States is. The fact that you criticize an organization such as the AVMA that has done so much good for animals, shows how narrow minded you are. While PETA does a lot of good, to think that PETA is the "be all" group for animal welfare is naive. There are many other groups and organizations that fight for and do good things for animals. I would think as a "freedom fighter for animals" you would realize this and applaud their efforts as well. If members of the AVMA are so dangerous, I suggest the next time one of your precious pets is sick or injured you try to find a veterinarian who is not a member of the AVMA to treat them. Good luck with that! And, nowhere in any of my posts did I mention I was for horse slaughter. As a matter of fact, I believe I said that I have taken in several mistreated and malnourished horses and cared for them until other homes could be found. You are quick to write angry comments and point fingers and accuse others of things they do not believe in. I am for animal welfare, I am for human rights, I am not for making fun of people with debilitating illnesses; regardless of whether I agree with their opinions or not.

Posted by: Walker | April 14, 2008 12:38 PM

Antigone, My point was that it is easy to disagree with something if it doesn’t affect you personally. When you or a loved one has actually benefited from insulin, medication, chemotherepy or surgical techniques that were discovered through animal testing, it’s a much tougher issue. I am very thankful to PETA for the great work they have done in regards to animal testing. PETA has done a wonderful job of opening the public’s eyes to the horrible conditions that lab animals faced in the past and sadly in some circumstances, continue to face in the present

Posted by: walker | April 14, 2008 01:22 PM

So Walker,
It's all right for C.H. to show up after each school shooting
with his mental midgets and telling anyone that would listen that it was the children and not the guns that killed their babies.
While parents are in such a state of loss.
AS he holds his gun over his head. Jesus Christ
You must be a robot with no heart and I know for sure that you have sold your soul.
For every word you type anyone can tell their is no soul envolved.
May "your" God find somwhere for you with peace.
because you are not going to the beautiful place that myself and many others on PETA'S site will be going.
All you are, is garbage, your going to the same place as Cochran is going.
The 2 of you will be in great company.
And I do not believe a word of what you have said about rescuing animals.
You are a phony and a con artist.
The way you speak, your hearts just not in it.
So please go away and leave us alone.
Peace!

Antigone,
Your post is amazing.
You see so much deeper than most people.
Peace!

Jack,
Walker is another one you need to think about getting rid of.
He sounds like mars.YUCK!

Posted by: Judith, Freedom Fighter for Animals | April 14, 2008 02:01 PM

Walker,
I simply do not believe you.
And I am extremely certain that you know why.
I would just leave, if I were you. We are here to raise money to stop the abuses of animals of all kind.
I just feel that you are a King of Cons.
Not a good feeling. You may be able to fool a few but I am not one of them, so as long as you stay here I shall and I must refer to you as the King of Cons.
Enough said.

Posted by: Judith, Freedom Fighter for Animals | April 14, 2008 04:20 PM

Walker,
Don't waste your energy on Judith. She has some troubling, deep issues. One minute she talks about freedom and peace, the next she screams for murder and censorship. Mars was a poster who was removed, I assume, because he/she had taken to using only personal attacks in his/her posts and never said anything of substance. He/She was anti-peta and not particularly pro-animal. Mars' posts never said much save for how stupid AR people are. Mars was banned. I am not sure how Judith gets to stick around, as many of her posts are fairly vile and offensive. What's good for the goose, you know. Anyway, Judith rarely says anything of substance, but is quick to condemn you as an inferno bound lying idiot because you disagree with something Peta does. She is the type of person every orginization dreads. She is the Peta version of every radical that gives an orginization a bad name. I'm sure she means well, but she comes across as an uncivilized vulgarian. She doesn't define peta, however. Most people here are much more reasonable in their disagreement. PEACE!!! You lying bastard!!

Posted by: Christopher Cochran MD | April 14, 2008 04:40 PM

Walker: My point is that sometimes you cannot have what you want, no matter how badly you want it. To save one innocent life at the expense of another just because YOU care more about the one than the other is immoral and unethical.

Also--PETA is not interested in animal WELFARE, which only maintains the status quo without really making any advancement in the lives of animals, except maybe on an individual basis. PETA supports animal RIGHTS--a vastly different mindset. If you don't understand the difference between the two, you should really look into it.

Posted by: Antigone1000 | April 14, 2008 04:54 PM

hey judith its plain and simple no gun kills anyone unless someone pulls the trigger it is not the gun it is the person behind it.

Posted by: claude | April 14, 2008 10:16 PM

Judith,
I believe our God, that means yours and mine, said "do untoo others as they would do untoo you." I say our God, because there is only one true God. You, not Walker, have a very shallow view of life and humanity. You choose to donate your time to the welfare of animals, so does Walker. I believe what he says is true. He sounds like a very polite person that respects what others say without resorting to hateful speech and snide remarks to make himself feel superior as you do.
Walker, I commend your patience and reserve for not resorting to the tactics of Judith.
Judith, it seems that you have this deep hate for anybody who has a different view than you. How do you ever have a constructive debate with people who believe opposing views? Instead of dialogue, do you just shout obscenties and insults to get into a shouting match? What makes you any different from a hunter who shoots a dear? You wished that our Vice-President "would just die", you stated that you were happy that Mrs. Heston was dead and you have spewed nothing but hate and filth in everyone of your posts.
So I ask again, what makes you so much better than the ones you scold?
Seems to me you don't know what real suffering is! You say you do because you watched a documentary that shows cows and chickens being slaughtered, but you never suffered the way the people of Darfur, North Korea, Iraq under Sadam, all of Europe during both world wars. These people knew what real suffering was, and I will be willing to bet that the life of chickens being used for food was the last thing on their minds!
I can only imagine what you are going to say about me now!
I'm sure you will call me a "Bushie" as well! Yeah, I voted for him!

Posted by: Kurt K | April 14, 2008 10:35 PM

anti, isn't that exactly the point, someone's loved one being placed higher than another life. If you would kill Walker to save your child, wouldn't you kill an animal? Maybe 2. With animal experimentation it may not be your suffering loved one that will benefit, but tehy are someones.

Posted by: rojo | April 15, 2008 09:00 AM

Hey folks, i think that walker is cochran! that one always makes different things out of himself - one time a hunter, one time a farmer, one time a surgeon, one time a veterinary and so on because he has nothing useful in his hands - he just wants to distract the website in the name of some consumer lobby - and vivisection on animals is definitely not applicable on the human being because every species is ruled by other principles - vivisection on animals is just criminal money making on the back of helpless animals and stupid tax payers! yep!

Posted by: FREEDOM BELL | April 15, 2008 12:29 PM

Hey Walker,
Since you are part of the AVMA , by the way many execellent vets do not feel the same as you for they are ver ANTI- horse slaughter and do not subscribe to your beliefs.
They walk hand in hand with AQHA and TPA. So you are amoung a bloody few.
We have been working for many, many, many years against your precious AVMA.
You are a horse killer,
Thats what you do.
Please heed this
You are their puppet, thats all they use you for. You are brand new and the are forming you the way they want to.
That means you are our enemy, that means you know nothing about H.R.503 and S.311
Please just go away, we are haveing a very hard time passing these bill and you together with Larry Craig and Burns from Mt. could do so much damage.
So please leave because we have a real fifh on our hands.
Peace!!!!!
So please just go away.
Thanks,
Judith

Posted by: Judith, Freedom Fighter for Animals | April 15, 2008 01:46 PM

I think that Walker has made some very good poiints. Unfortunately whenever the subject of animal life comes up, some people change the subject.

It is VERY rare that someone would be standing with their child and the parent would suddenly have to choose between their child's life or a rabbit's life.

The REAL issue is this: give me one reason why an animal's life is LESS valuable than a human's. Why is it LESS tragic that a deer is killed than when a human is killed? Can anyone give me a logical answer?

I strongly disagree with Antigone, by the way. Animal welfarists are those who refuse to assault, degrade or commit arson in the name of animal rights. The *extreme* animal rights folks have the RIGHTS part correct, but not the ANIMAL part correct. You don't save animals by insulting people. Period.

However, Antigone made an excellent point that when we talk about whose lives we value, we will by nature go to those closest to us.

Again, can anyone tell me why an animal's life is less valuable than a human's??

Posted by: Maya, CVT | April 15, 2008 02:00 PM

Judith: I support you, for caring about animals the way that you do. Unfortunately, there are far too many people out there who cannot understand that there is no "us or them" scenario when it comes to animals, there is only a win-win for everyone in giving them their due respect and allowing them to live their lives in peace. You seem to be one of those who understands that, so disregard the comments of those who never will.

Posted by: Antigone1000 | April 15, 2008 06:12 PM

Rojo: Exactly my point. A human being would kill another human being to save a loved one, so if that human being would kill an animal to save that loved one, what does that really prove?? NOTHING. However, I don't think you'd like it too much if I had the right to sacrifice your child to save mine and there was nothing you could do about it.

Posted by: Antigone1000 | April 15, 2008 06:23 PM

Kurt K - Cochran - Walker and the other ignorant Peta- and animal hating jerks: stop it once and for ever - you are definitely on the wrong blog! I'm an animal and human rights activist and i do not tolerate your primitive attacks on Judith and any other animal protectors! Fuck off to another blog! We are tired from your always repeating the same shittttttttttttt! Good night! -----

Posted by: FREE TIBET | April 16, 2008 06:17 AM

christopher cochran: i think your head becomes always more empty and useless - now just you find dirty words against Judith - who is one of our most appreciated bloggers - and to the blog owner i repeat this: ceterum censeo cartaginem esse DELENDA!!!!!!!!

Posted by: claudia marrapodi | April 16, 2008 06:22 AM

Kurt K: you wanker stop to play the human rights card: i work for Darfur, Palestine and women's rights and in the same time i try to help the animals! i suffered in some arabian countries and South America! i know exactly what suffering means: for this cause i try to help every abused animal in pain and because of low riders like you bush-voters and to the cuck i'm telling this: fuck off this page and go to amuse yourself in some red light scene: inter crura virginis fortuna juvenum est!

Posted by: HUMAN RIGHTS UP | April 16, 2008 06:31 AM

Freedom Bell,
I think you might be on to something.
Don't you just love people that hide behind names.
And that Kurk K Guy going around telling everyone that will listen to him that he voted for Bush! I would hang my head in shame after what that monster has done.
It truly does show someones mentality.
Kurk, this is an animal site so plese go to a Dufur site,
I was one of many people to keep Steven Spielberg out of China because of the conflict so I did my job, did you?
Why don't you calm down and go shoot 18 hole with your Bush Buddy.
Remember this is an animal site. We talk about animals, O.K. And Walker or should I say {Cochran} go take a nap. Being two people are hard!
I won't be on this site with C.H. again. He is old news and I am thrilled to put him away.
Back to PETA

Posted by: Judith, Freedom Fighter for Animals | April 16, 2008 09:21 AM

Maya: You don't save animals' lives by telling people that YOU don't have a problem if they eat meat, either. Unfortunately, some people WILL get offended by AR comments/statements, but I think that their being offended is a small price to pay to gain better lives for animals who are subjected to the most horrific of abuses. You seem more concerned with preserving human feelings than advocating animal rights, unfortunately.

Posted by: Antigone1000 | April 16, 2008 10:45 AM

Maya,

I agree with some of the points you have made as well, especially in regards to animal rights vs. animal welfare. You are proof that one can have civilized communication without being angry or hatef