Nicely said, Jack!

Posted by: Steve | September 7, 2007 10:18 AM

Hunters are nothing but cowards and killers. Women hunters are just as disgusting! Too bad no mention of what hunting does to animals was mentioned in these articles.
Jack, this data made my day, thanks!!!

Posted by: Ana | September 7, 2007 12:29 PM

How many people have been killed and injured in hunting accidents (and that includes innocent people in their own backyards)?

How many people have been stopped from enjoying the wilderness for hiking, camping, photography, whatever because of hunters?

It's time for the MAJORITY to take back wild areas from a tiny thug MINORITY

We need broader representation of society on Fish & Wildlife boards, because right now it is all hunters

Posted by: kelly | September 7, 2007 01:07 PM

I love you, Jack. I hope this post reinforces to all those people who say PETA is racist because it doesn't target hunting (a largely white-male dominated joke of a "sport") that PETA is working to free ALL ANIMALS from ALL CRUEL people and practices, regardless of race.

Also, Jack, I totally support you in this blog war! (That Amy's posts aren't nearly as funny or interesting as yours are.)

Posted by: Soli | September 7, 2007 01:30 PM

I didn't actually know that birdwatching and wildlife photography were on the uprise, but it's good to hear. Are hunters actually realizing that killing things aren't the best way to respect and interact with them? That would be great. I know that I had a friend in university who convinced his former hunter of a father to go vegetarian, if not vegan...

Posted by: Canaduck | September 7, 2007 01:35 PM

Can someone please explain to me why this author does not comment on what will actually happen to the animals and land with out hunting? The overpopulation will naturally happen and it will negative effects on the animals, insects, and the ecosystem. Hunting game has been around since the beginning of time and has kept a balance for land and animals. Someone needs to do more research and have all the facts to make their statements tangible.

Posted by: casper | September 7, 2007 01:45 PM

Stuff the Hunters allow Mother Nature to control. Just been viewing the Horrific Bambi Slaughter. Where are the '' Nerds '' Sue & Nad., could that be Kosher Meat ? Come on twins lets hear from you.

Posted by: keith | September 7, 2007 02:21 PM

ha ha ha ha!!!!

It all makes tooooo much sense!!

Posted by: Jaclyn | September 7, 2007 03:36 PM

Yeah - this is a long rifle and here we got another mikro-penis!!!

Posted by: Lord of the Apes | September 7, 2007 04:28 PM

It takes a man with BALLS to stand up for animal rights.
I always suspected that cowardly hunters lacked something down below and now we have the proof!

Posted by: Maureen | September 7, 2007 06:26 PM

I cannot WAIT to see what kind of "facts" the pro-hunters are going to post here in response!

Hunting and fishing is wrong, even though it is still unfortunately legal... The cowards who engage in these activities will no doubt continue to expend all of their energy justifying their barbaric acts...

Posted by: Michele | September 7, 2007 08:19 PM

isnt that funny,the hunting club im a member of grows about 30% a year.NY state web site says it grew 20% since 2005, dont lie

Posted by: john smith | September 7, 2007 10:38 PM

It's a good time to be a Hunter

Posted by: Rodney | September 7, 2007 10:42 PM

Casper, just what have you been smoking? Hunting being around "since the beginning of time"???? Just what "beginning" do you mean? Do you think humans have been around that long? You want facts, then do your own damn research and get it right.

And it is HUMANS who have messed around with the ecosystem with over-hunting and over-fishing. We have to stop the insanity/cruelty, and let nature start getting back on track as much as possible in this industrialized world!

I have never understood how you killers can be so proud of what you do to the non-human animals with whom we share this earth. You are disgusting, and I am SO GLAD to see that hunting and fishing is on the decline. Obviously there are more and more enlightened people out there who are enjoying and not interfering with nature, by birdwatching, etc.

I have said this on previous posts and I will keep saying it: I DARE YOU to watch the movie "Earthlings" IN ITS ENTIRETY and then see what you have to say about killing animals!

Oh, and it is pretty hilarious that you hunters/anglers have been engaging in these so-called "sports" in order to appear more macho, when it turns out that you are more likely to have heart problems and have smaller you-know-whats! HA HA!

Posted by: Michele | September 8, 2007 12:09 AM

I have a question for the hunters--namely Casper, Rodney, and "John Smith" (the guy who is such a coward that he has to use fake name name):

Let me guess guys--two inches? Three?

And Casper--you say you hunt to HELP animals and to stabilize their populations. Uh, no Casper, I think not. You hunt because you find pleasure in killing, and because you GET SOMETHING out the deal (namely, the flesh of a dead animal and his head mounted on a wall inside your trailer). If you weren't getting something in return you would give a rat's ass about "preserving" anything. Pretty transparent.

Stick to NASCAR, guys--it's safer for everybody involved.

Posted by: Susan E. Davis | September 8, 2007 12:12 AM

just to let YOU PEOPLE know i'm a deer hunter/fisherman. i came to this site to express my rights, i think you all are a bunch of idiots, i deer hunt and really enjoys it. i lets me get away from the daily grind and IT PUTS FOOD ON MY TABLE,It's better for you than ground beef. so please leave the hunting and fishing to the people that do it, not to the people that like to bad mouth it.

Posted by: andrew bechtol | September 8, 2007 12:17 AM

Even if hunters appreciate nature and animals as they want to make us believe - they are still in the childish destruction phase!

Posted by: Harini Khanna | September 8, 2007 10:47 AM

jack what's wrong the piece i put up last night to strong, i love hunting and fishing. so does that make me a coward, no it doesn't it make me a great outdoorsmen. so all the anti hunter/fisherman,can keep complaning and moaning, cause there are a lot more of as than there you.

Posted by: andrew | September 8, 2007 01:34 PM

Dick Cavett wrote a wonderful
book many years ago.
Half way through he made the statement that "Men that hunt have very tiny dicks."
So ladies never marry a hunter.

Maher and Newkirk
2008

Posted by: Judith, Freedom Fighter | September 8, 2007 02:36 PM

Did you know in Kentucky there is a disease called blue tongue spreading across the deer population. This is because of over population of deer it swells there tongue and they cant eat therefore starving to death. Now you tell me if it is more ethical to let them over populate get this disease and starve to death or to hunt them and therefore having a quick death.

Posted by: will | September 8, 2007 02:38 PM

andrew,
it's quality which counts - not quantity! if thousand people are eating poison this doesn't mean that i have to do the same! and i repeat it again: finding pleasure in killing animals is sick; today we got supermarkets - we don't need hunting! man has to let mother nature in peace - and she shall regulate herself as she did thousands of years ago!

Posted by: argus | September 8, 2007 02:43 PM

If you so called hunters were killing for conservation reasons (because you don't want the animals to suffer and starve) then why are you so proud of your bloody photos, antlers and heads mounted on your walls? You are a bunch of sadistic clowns.

Posted by: Rosemary | September 8, 2007 03:30 PM

I don't understand how it's a bad time to be hunter.
So there are less hunters so more game animals per hunter? Also, higher heart-risk? So is being physically inactive. I can see where firing a rifle can cause stress and impact upon the muscle tissue of the heart and surrounding regions, but it can't be HUEG TOTAL REASON! And finally, the link between small genitals and hunting is wrong, wrong, WRONG! It's the fact that the study found that more men that have smaller genitalia hunt, not hunters have smaller genitalia!

Holy cow people! I'm on your side on promoting a smarter ecosystem redevelopment, regrowth, and continued growth, but you all have the same logical fallacy and spin that the religious right and CARL ROVE! Fix your agenda and style PLEASE so you don't look dumb.

Posted by: Wililam | September 8, 2007 06:49 PM

Hunting is a cowards sport. How would you hunters like it if an animal hunted you down and killed you and then placed your head on a wall as a trophy? Would you all like that? No.

Hunting is cruel. I do not see how anyone can get any satisfaction out of it. Animals are not for us to hunt.

Posted by: Brandon Harris | September 8, 2007 07:35 PM

There are other alternatives to hunting and fishing. Nowadays people can find so much more to do with their spare time than hurting animals. Animals have feelings too and they can experience pain, fear, and sadness. Some people just don't care about the animals feelings because they justify it as something that they enjoy doing. And I wonder if they would enjoy someone doing this to their own mother.

Posted by: Jessica | September 8, 2007 08:33 PM

Hunters have no respect for nature as they claim. They don't even know what they are killing until they have killed it. Just read the story from Yahoo. A hunter and his guide mistakenly killed a Grizzly, which is an endangered species, when they were hunting for Black bears. Brainless & D@#kless!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070908/ap_on_sc/grizzly_killed

Posted by: michelle | September 8, 2007 10:08 PM

do 'hunters' (nah you aint a real hunter less you need to do it to live) trail the internet looking for animal rights sites to post on? They are the worst for that, and also the most violent when confronted on the field, maybe they dont like their little perversions to be aired in the open??

Posted by: Jane | September 9, 2007 05:00 AM

Hunting isn’t pleasant but if you do any DOT research on vehicle vs. animals you will see that up the east coast from GA to NY more people are being killed and seriously injured in deer vs. vehicle accidents on interstates so hunting does help in some ways. So before attacking people do some more research putting an animal in front of a human or family on the interstate just doesn’t seem right the money it cost to go out and rescue the injured family or individual and clean up and insurance rates is a great argument and please research this like I have and then tell me why a “sport” I don’t like I should protest against and stop. Is that so that one day it could be me, or a loved one hitting a deer on the interstate and become injured or worse yet lost to my family. Or should we stop transportation also so that no one is injured in an animal vs. vehicle accident. PS I lost my sister when she hit a deer on the road last year

Posted by: think and research 1st | September 9, 2007 09:50 AM

Susan E. Davis I bet you have a car with leather interior. And mine is 9" ask your sister. Have you heard of an inbred deer population hmmmm you might want to research that. Yes hunting helps! Methane gas is a large cause of ozone depletion proven fact, at the same time vegans are known to be gassy people because of all the air trapped in the preferred food of the diet so you’re ruining the ozone every time you pass gas but let’s point our finger at someone else before we can admit our own guilt. One more question where do you think all of those leather shoes in your closet came from. Damn sure wasn’t a plant.

Posted by: huntman | September 9, 2007 09:59 AM

Would you call a WWI or WWII vets a coward. Well you are, almost all of the snipers from the two wars including Vietnam and Korea were all hunters. That’s where they got there marksmanship skills. Think before you speak with you all hunters are cowards comments some of them might be your relatives who fought in these wars. Please stop my grandfather was a sniper in WWII who fought for our country.

Posted by: Anonymous | September 9, 2007 11:20 AM

To "Huntman"--(yet another hunter who is too much of a coward to use his real name):

My sister wouldn't know your "size"--she doesn't mess around with inbred hilljacks.

And as for your "bet" that I have leather seats--you lose that bet, sweetie. I have car with cloth seats, but actually, I don't use it very often. I take public transportation. Likewise, I haven't bought any leather shoes (or anything else leather) in 15 years. Yes, "pointing fingers at other before we can admit our own guilt"--seems to be the preferred tactic of most meat-eaters and hunters. Face it fellas: You hunt because you're violent and enjoy killing. It doesn't get any sicker than that.

Posted by: Susan E. Davis | September 9, 2007 12:26 PM

huntman,
you are a silly person! and above all you don't understand anything about cooking! vegetarian eating - if it's cooked in the right way doesn't cause gasses! and imagine: there are people in this world who don't need a car and who are wearing vegan shoes! instead of going out for hunting in autumn and winter - stay near the fireplace and read an intelligent book!

Posted by: paint you red | September 9, 2007 01:14 PM

How does being a hunter have anything to do with dick size and for you people who say let mother nature take its course just to let you know humans are apart of mother nature and predators are needed to keep the population regulated all of you peta members are pussy's who dont know anything about hunting anyway so how can you talk so ignorantly about something you know nothing about

Posted by: will | September 9, 2007 04:25 PM

Studies continuously show that those who hunt are less educated, less successful, less intelligent than the rest of society.

But one only needs to read the comments of hunters to figure that out

for example, "Hunting game has been around since the beginning of time"

Uh hello Caspar? People haven't been around since the beginning of time. So how would that be happening exactly?

Hunters have decimated species. They have altered the balance of nature.

The "overpopulation" excuse is propaganda devised by hicks so they can continue to get drunk every weekend and blast little birds and submissive deer.

And brag about how many laws they have broken

Posted by: kelly | September 9, 2007 04:41 PM

Come on guys you have to realize the dimunitve penis website is a total fake. It's funny how all of it's pages except the about page and their home page give out bogus out-of-bandwidth errors. (if they were out of bandwidth you wouldn't see any of the pages not just a certain few.) To clarify: THERE IS NO LINK TO HUNTING AND penis innyus. BTW I have never hunted and don't think I ever will, just stop lying to people.

Posted by: Dont be stupid | September 9, 2007 05:20 PM

Does Peta care about people or just animals? I am sure if Peta were able to dominate politcal issues they would outlaw everything from hunting to meat processing plants. But think of the people you are putting out of work...even in the hunting business, think of the arms and munitions manufactures, the hunting lodge owners, and the butcher shops...all those people would be out of work, families left with nothing to eat, all because some people think animals are equal to humans. People like Wililam who pose the question of "how would we like it if humans were hunted by animals" well the fact is we aren't and if your dead body is laying out in the forest animals are not going to have a moral objection to eating you.

Peta needs to realize that there are worse things in the world than people hunting, eating meat, or wearing leather, we should focus more on people treating other people ethically.

Posted by: Jeff | September 9, 2007 05:33 PM

Why is it that the best you hunters can come up with is:
1.) deer will starve
2.) people are killed in car accidents with deer
and 3.) "I bet you have leather car seats, shoes, whatever . . .

Deer are actively encouraged to breed to supply targets for hunters--no hunters, no more encouraging breeding.

They make a device to warn all wildlife that a car is coming, and I believe that it is available through the PETA merchandise catalog. Again, less breeding of deer, fewer deer to get into accidents with cars in which humans are injured.

And PLEASE--Vegans don't wear leather!!! Hello! do your own research on the vegan lifestyle before making yourself sound like an idiot.
(wanna try me on the ecological impact of leather vs. pleather? Let's start with heavy metals like chromium used in tanneries to keep the dead skins from rotting as they normally would . . .)

Posted by: Soli | September 9, 2007 05:53 PM

so i guess everyone is going to move away from the us since all the people who founded this country and fought to make it free were all hunters and according to all of you hunters are cowards which makes the us founded by cowards. hurry up and leave you anti americans. ps thanks for also calling war vet cowards also im sure that they are glad to hear that!

Posted by: Anonymous | September 9, 2007 06:33 PM

What does size and hunting have to do with anything? Is it that you peta people know that hunting helps most wildlife in the longrun and you have just gotton to the point where all you can thing of are stupid insults? Thats what I think. I love to go out and hunt for all of the cute game animals like deer, sqirrel, and turkey to name a few. When I see the animals in the wild though, there are no signs of any disease or malnutrition amoung them. But, in places where their is no hunting, there are animals everywhere and they all look small and underfed. That SHOWS that hunting actually HELPS all the animals in the longrun (except for the one with lead in its head).

Posted by: A-man | September 9, 2007 06:54 PM

Huntman,

You sound like a peeping tom. How do you know what kind of shoes Susan has in her closet? I think you got the wrong measurement system. Didn't you mean 9 centimeters?

Posted by: Mike Quinoa | September 9, 2007 06:54 PM

Every single person who has commented on hunting being an unspeakable, disgusting, cruel act, I ask you to watch the "Bambi Butchers" video on your home page, and then consider the following... I agree, there are people out there who say they "hunt", and they do not, they kill for sport, and they are wrong. However, I hunt, I have been in the woods every fall since the first time my father and brothers took me over a decade ago (I am only 21 for those of you who would like to use my age as a reason to resent what I have to say). I am what is considered, even though not by the majority of those of you that will read this, an "ethical" hunter. I have shot, and yes, killed, many creatures. I do not hunt, or as many of you will call it, "kill" for sport, I do not kill for the joy of killing, I hunt. (Dispute that as you may, I know you will) When I hunt, as an ethical hunter, (which again, I know many of you believe "ethical hunter" is an oxymoron, assuming most of you are educated enough to know what an oxymoron is) I know what I am shooting, I will not mistake a grizzly bear for a black bear, that is not mistakeable, I know when to shoot, I know where to shoot... yes, the animal will die, but I would venture to say 75% of every animal I have shot has died immediately upon impact and the rest within the minute, be it squirrle, duck, or deer. Now I ask you, after you watch the video of which I first made mention, which would you prefer for the sake of that deer? And if you care to avoid my entire point and say neither, I tell you, if you wish to abolish what I refer to as "ethical hunting", you will find those deer that I speak of dead on the hood of your car (to Jane, I am deeply sorry to hear of your sister), you will find those deer with chronic wasting disease, with "Blue Tounge" (even though I am not aware of that disease, I suppose I will take Judith's word for it)... You all tell me, how would you like to manage today's ever rapidly growing deer population? If you want to let nature take her course, thats fine, but I assure you, its not as pretty as some of you have been so inclined to believe.

I look forward to everyone's comments, and mostly criticisms. I will defend my opinion, and this will not be the last of my comments on this discussion.

And two particular notes that I do believe need to be mentioned...

To Will, who has so cunningly made the following comment "finding pleasure in killing animals is sick; today we got supermarkets - we don't need hunting!"... You my friend, you're an idiot. I dont think I need to explain why; I'm sure even your fellow supporters on this issue could tell you.

And just to calm down Michelle, I was not "trailing the internet looking for animal rights sites to post on", I was researching your organization for information to include in a Wildlife Managment presentation, so dont go all psycho on me for posting, if you can help that.

Hope everyone has something good for me, I'll be looking forward to it!

Posted by: KC | September 9, 2007 11:42 PM

So my friend and teammate in college just recently sent me this site. I have always known him to be a hunter and bias towards hunters. When he sent this to me I thought maybe he was blowing out of proportion the comments that were being made on this site. However I know that he is not wrong. I will give those who are making arguments for one side or another advise on debate. First dont refer to your opponents penis one time let alone multiple times. It makes your argument weak. It makes it seem that you dont have enough to say so you comment on something you really have no idea about. Next I would not refer to anyone you dont personally know as a coward. To group thousands if not millions of people into one group such as cowards would be very ignorant and makes you sound very uneducated and uninformed. Now as for the debate. I would like to consider myself a learning hunter. I would also consider myself an experienced angler. However I am where my friend stands I will not go out and just shoot an animal to shoot an animal. Or catch a fish to see it suffer outside off the water. However what I shoot I do eat and what I catch and do not realease is fileted and eaten. The person who made the comment about not needing to hunt because there are grocery stores...You must not have ever been to any sort of cattle farm where the cattle are not free range. I am also very offended that you would call hunters and anglers cowards. Now as for calling hunters uneducated I believe you may make yourself sound very uneducated yourself. If you look at what it requires to really be involved in wildlife management or a park ranger or run a hunt club the majority of people hold either a masters or a doctorate in that area. I never would have come on this site if I had not heard how rediculous the comments were. Infact I always thought the stories of peta people being radical and irrational was just being blown out of proportion by those who did not like them but after seeing this I have come to believe these people. I am very sad to see that nowadays people can be so blind to thier cause and not truly look at the facts and make a decision for themselves as opposed to just being blinded by this radical activist view.

Posted by: Cole | September 10, 2007 04:44 AM

Michele once again I see you are making fun of people who do something you don’t believe in. please learn about Christ and give him your heart because, obviously you’re an atheist with your comments. All of you preach spay and neuter your dog to control there population but you don’t want people to hunt to control wildlife population. I love the way that you post pure fiction as fact and brag about how true it is, which in turn makes me turn around and laugh at your videos. Why you ask? You are putting fiction as fact DMGDRO in which on a blog in April peta brags is a great April’s fool joke. So now I ask how much editing has been done to make meet your meat look as bad as is really is. Jane learn proper English please and only use real words. How many hunters just go out and kill an animal and leave it behind? None I hunt for food reasons and do not prefer meat from the store. Why? There are too many hormones and other chemicals in store bought meet. That is why I hunt for food not to be cruel I want a meat that is good for you not pumped with hormones.

Posted by: huntman | September 10, 2007 09:41 AM

By all means; let's go into a panic when less and less people are interested in killing for sport. We may have to go back to, gasp, allowing nature to take the natural course by not eradicating the predators of animals like deer. I mean, it may mean making sacrifices like not hunting wolves from planes, no poisoning dens or feeding trophy hunting egos. But, sacrifices must be made if humans are losing their taste for death. Imagine that; how horrible! Idiots.

Posted by: Loriel | September 10, 2007 10:21 AM

hunters are cowards especially in the so called canned hunts they do to and as far as pop control well mother nature took care of that before we came along and killed everything and its called preator vs prey if we leave shit alone then the animals will sort things out. hunters are cowards who all have small penis's and need to compensate for them by killing something smaller then themselves wanna be a real man then take that animal on with what you were given and what they were given not what man made to over take the earth HUNTERS YOU SUCK

Posted by: Poet | September 10, 2007 11:36 AM

Life feeds upon life, it is a cycle that has repeated itself down through the ages across all lifeforms in the animal kingdom. For thousands of years, man has hunted animals for food and in many areas of the world man continues to do so out of sheer necessity. The citizens of the world can not and will not be converted to veganism. There will always be individuals who choose to eat meat. Rather than trying to convert everyone, why not support more ethical solutions to factory farms? There are farms in which animals are raised without hormones fed a vegetarian diet, allowed time to move about and are treated fairly. If meat eaters begin to purchase products from these farms, factory farms will have to change their ways or will cease to exist altogether, its simply economics. We know that that is all these farms look at anyway. Hunting for food, not sport, is another alternative to the factory farms which supporters of PETA and those with a conscience deplore. So why demonize an act which has been an essential part of the human existence for tens of thousands of years?

Posted by: Adam | September 10, 2007 12:41 PM

Hunting was not from the beginning of time. The eating of flesh was due to the fall of man. The curse will be lifted, go to Scripture. It is our duty as stewards to strive for the most kind and compassionate way to take care of God's creation. Hunting for sport is not it. If population control is a problem, a contraceptive has been developed. Does anyone know how to do online petition(s) to ban sports hunting, ban hunting near homes and to implement safe and humane contraceptives? With separate petitions, even if someone doesn't agree with everything, they may sign one.We need to show that most people don't like hunting. (P.S. When the herd near me gets numerous, the does have more single births and mostly male. The only problem is when the "hunters" get involved).

Posted by: Murn | September 10, 2007 01:28 PM

Dear Vegans,

I am consistently perplexed by the notion that a diet completely free of animal products is in some way healthy.
Any diet that relies on dietary supplements (vitamins) to survive can't be healthy. It is true that modern low saturated fat diets do promote health in many ways, and I, as a physician do not support high intake of fatty meats such as beef and pork. However, humans can not survive without animal products. We can not manufacture B12 and plants do not make it. Vegans must take
vitamins with artificial B12.
It is produced in big vats by bacteria (bacteria exploitation). Wild game is an extremely healthy protein source, complete in every way.
We as humans are here today because our evolutionary ancestors began eating animal protein and fat and were able to evolve the giant brains that allow us to entertain this debate. Vegetables are extremely important as well. Like most things in nature, balance is tantamount to good health. Vegan diets are not complete sources of nutrition.

Regarding the penis size issue. If a true study were done, one might be surprised.
Diets high in soy are also high in phytoestrogens which definitely would not promote larger penis size in men.

I own 200 acres in the Ozarks that I have reclaimed for wildlife. I spend thousands of my own money to promote good habitat for the plants and animals that live there. I do, on occasion harvest some of the special gifts that live on my land. I am very thankful for this opportunity.
When you restore habitat you can't be species specific. You can't be prodeer or proquail only. When you improve habitat, you improve the habitat for all living beings in that habitat. I refuse to believe that my small harvest each year is in any way harmful to the natural
ecosystem on my land. Those of
you who have made broad generizations about hunting hunters sound very bigoted and
prejudiced. Until you see how
things realy are for yourself, you simply can't make an educated comment. Thank you for your time

Posted by: Christopher Cochran MD | September 10, 2007 03:29 PM

Ehem, uh "murn", I would seriously stop trying to persuade people to be "vegan" by using the Bible and christianity. We have complete control over all animals, as said in the Bible. Also, God ENCOURAGES us to be omnivors. Oh, and man really has been eating mat since man first appeared on Earth. In fact, farming wasn't invented until a few dozen milleniums before BC. So, if you didn't understand that, YOU ARE WRONG.

Posted by: A-man | September 10, 2007 04:04 PM

To all hunters

Guess what? You're the ones that killed all of the "natural" predators that deer and other creatures have. Your argument is specious to say the least. You killed all of the Florida Panthers ( only about 50 left which is realistically nothing). You don't like deer near your homes well then stop encroaching on their territory and stop overbuilding and overpopulating the planet. I am a pacifist so war does not appeal to me. Bringing up Vietnam vets is ridiculous because the American public reacted so negatively to them on their return. My spouse and friends were Vietnam vets and none of them hunt/ed. In fact my late spouse hated hunting and so did his many friends.

Hey Jeff what a good idea; then they can get jobs that have nothing to with murder and killing. No more animals writhing in agony and torment, fancy that. Not having blood on their hands, no more slaughterhouses, that sounds good to me. In Sir Thomas More's book Utopia, the butchers were considered the vilest in society.
huntman
Telling Michele to find Christ is really absurd coming from you. Jesus spoke about love and peace; he gave no directions on how to kill any animals whether it be for food and certainly not for hunting. All of you hunters are cowards and liars. You hunt defenseless animals and enjoy killing, that's why you hunt. Hunting is not a sport; these creatures have no weapons and they did not agree to any combat. Boxers enter the ring equally and fight each other of their own accord. Try to bring down a wolf without your multiple weapons of war. You are all pathetic, even doves you kill. You would hunt cockroaches if you could make a bullet small enough to kill them. Why don't you hunters hunt each other, at least it would be on equal turf. COWARDS!!!!

Posted by: Ana | September 10, 2007 04:05 PM

here they are again - all these hunting freaks blowing in the same old used horn! and again i'm telling you loud and clear that nature doesn't need any disturbance by freaks like you with guns and no brains and to

Jeff:
you are so afraid that all the evil-doers loose their jobs - so you can be happy that there is still death-penalty around - so the executioner doesn't loose his job!!! (poor little shady - you're lacking eons of education)

Posted by: orinoco | September 10, 2007 04:32 PM

I'm sorry A-man but you need to read at the beginning in Genesis where God says I give you the plants to eat. Then turn to the story about Noah and you'll see when meat was allowed to be eaten. Then turn to Isaiah 11:6-9 and learn something really cool.There's nothing wrong with wanting to live in peace and harmony with God's creation. There's always a kinder way to do things when one really wants to.

Posted by: Murn | September 10, 2007 05:34 PM

Christopher,

Most plants did have residual B12 on them in the past, but because of fastidious cleaning all B12 is now removed. A study of Iranian vegans eating not-so-clean plant material were shown to have acquired adequate B-12. B-12 cannot be made by plants or animals. Once a person reaches a certain stage (50 years), it is recommended that ALL people, regardless of if they are omnivores or vegetarians, should take B12 supplementation.

"Up to 30 percent of adults aged 50 years and older may have atrophic gastritis, an increased growth of intestinal bacteria, and be unable to normally absorb vitamin B12 in food. They are, however, able to absorb the synthetic vitamin B12 added to fortified foods and dietary supplements. Vitamin supplements and fortified foods may be the best sources of vitamin B12 for adults older than age 50 years."

A natural vegan source of B12 is the herb Dang Gui. It's used in Chinese medicine for treating anemia. Other potential sources of B12 for vegans include Indonesian tempeh, ontjom, and other fermented food products. Spirulina, an algae, may also contain some B12. Another vegan source is yeast spreads.

A-man,

Not all people interpret "dominion" to mean total subjugation of animals. Some religions even promote, OMG, vegetarianism.

Posted by: Mike Quinoa | September 10, 2007 06:48 PM

Dear Dr. Christopher Cochran, M.D.:

Hello and Good Evening to you, my name is Brandon Harris and I would love to share something with you.

I am trying to become a vegan. Meat is not healthy and if you see how the meat is processed in a meat packing plant or poultry processing plant you would not want to eat any type of meat either.

Meat is unhealthy because it has antibiotics and hormones injected into it that are bad for your body. It is unhealthy to be fat and quite frankly, meat consumption contributes to heart disease, diabetes and stroke. As a doctor, you should know this.

I eat well and I take vitamin supplements like flax seed oil, B-12, Lysine, Vitamin C, Vitamin E, a multi-vitamin and Alfalfa tablets. I could take these vitamin supplements with vegetables also and I still would be healthy.

Hunting animals is cruel. There is no reason people should be hunting.

Animals do not count as food and they are not for us to eat.

Very Sincerely,
Brandon Harris

Posted by: Brandon Harris | September 10, 2007 07:32 PM

Huntman, there is no evidence linking eating vegetables to methane gasses in your body.

Vegetables, when cooked the right way, will not produce gas in your body.

Methane gas is produced by decaying matter in the ground. The vegetable fiber goes through your body and you are getting important vitamins and nutrients that your body needs.

Meat causes high cholesterol in your body. There is nothing linking vegetables to high cholesterol.

Posted by: Brandon Harris | September 10, 2007 07:36 PM

yeah, and I can't wait to see more "facts" from PETA about hunting. PETA is an organization based on emotion rather than logic. If it wasn't for a meat eating gun nut, modern conservation (yes they benefit ALOT of wild animals) movements would not exist today. Also, the rise in birdwatchers is a good thing, everyone should be able to enjoy the outdoors.

Posted by: Roy | September 10, 2007 10:13 PM

This might be the dumbest thing I've seen on-line in a long time. No facts just illogical arguments.

Posted by: Josh Groome | September 10, 2007 10:41 PM

Mr. Harris,

You have to take all of those supplements because your diet is incomplete. Meat doesn't make you fat, calories make you fat.
Processed meat is often laden with many toxic chemicals which is why I promote free range, or wild game meats. Since I am not crazy about carrion, I am obligated to harvest the fresh wild game personally. I am careful not to criticize other beliefs with subjective statements like 'cruel' or 'wrong' because those debates tend to go nowhere. Some of the comments on this blog from pro and anti hunter alike are downright bigotry. As a doctor I do know that obesity contributes to all sorts of diseases seen equally in obese
omnivores and vegetarians. Fatty meat is concentrated form of calories and I do not advocate its excessive consumption. But is all meat
bad for you? Absolutely not.

Mr Qinoa,

You prove my point when you list numerous other forms of B12 supplementation. All forms are 'natural' as they are made by bacteria, but the reason people with pernicious anemia (rarely)respond to the supplements is that the doses are supranormal. If you have to hunt and peck to find complete nutrition in your diet it is not a complete and balanced diet. Vegan diets are only survivable due to modern science and technology.
I do not know why a over fifty
year old person would need vitamin supplements unless they were found to be deficient in one. Excessive amounts of any vitamin are either harmful (ADEK) or simply excreted unused (that funny smell in you pee when you take a B-vitamin).

Mr. Harris,

Most of my patients who have high cholesterol do so because they eat excessive amounts of highly processed plant material, namely vegetable oil and wheat.

Thanks to all of you for your retort. What Fun!!

Christopher Cochran MD

Posted by: Christopher Cochran MD | September 11, 2007 04:14 PM

Uh, murn, I never said that God doesn't allow vegetarianism. And Genisis 9:3 states that everything that lives or moves God has allowed us to eat(this goes double for Brandon Harris). This also states that hunting or eating animals is not cruel because you have permision. And just to let anyone who says that hunters are cowards, Teddy Rosevelt was a great warrior in the Spanish War and an avid hunter. (take that petards!!!)

Posted by: A-man | September 11, 2007 04:25 PM

all you peta people out there need to stop insulting hunting if you don't know a thing about it. Just leave the work for the huntin' pros.

Posted by: A-man | September 11, 2007 04:32 PM

By the way "Hunt and Peck" is a southernism meaning "to search ardently" as in a chicken for a grasshopper.

Posted by: Christopher Cochran MD | September 11, 2007 05:05 PM

brandon mehtane gas is a byproduct of food (meat and or veggies) being broke down in the intestines hello basic biology 101. and mehtane gas i linked to ozone depletion please research before sticking your foot in your mouth

Posted by: Anonymous | September 11, 2007 06:42 PM

I am a Hunter and I am proud of it. To all of you immature folks that like to insult us, GROW UP. I am a hunter who eats what I kill. To all of you CITY SLICKERS, have you ever seen what Animals will to do farmers Crops. Deer, bear, raccoons, ground hogs, skunks, and many other animals can do serious damage. We also use it as population control. Also the deer killed go to needy families who cannot afford meat. You only hate us and insult us because you don't understand us. To all of you people who have to talk about men's genitalia need grow up. Our country has bigger issues like Illegal Immigration and the War.

Posted by: Steve | September 11, 2007 10:21 PM

"! and i repeat it again: finding pleasure in killing animals is sick; today we got supermarkets - we don't need hunting! "

The supermarket is just another type of hunting ground.Instead of hitting the woods you hit the aisles. The end remains the same.

"then why are you so proud of your bloody photos, antlers and heads mounted on your walls? "

Are you that stupid to think every hunter has a head mounted on the wall? Very few actualy do.

"And it is HUMANS who have messed around with the ecosystem with over-hunting and over-fishing."

The ecosystem is being destroyed by pollution created in cities and animals lose their homes when you built yours.

"Uh hello Caspar? People haven't been around since the beginning of time. So how would that be happening exactly?"

Yes we have. Time is a human measurement and is not found in nature.

" How would you hunters like it if an animal hunted you down "

Ask your grizzly man. Oh wait, you can't.

Posted by: Mars | September 12, 2007 08:13 AM

I personally have to laugh at every single one of you on this blog., Dr Cochran being the exception in my opinion. There hasn't been 1 single viable argument on this whole post. I see a lot of name calling and 2 small groups of people who stand on extreme opposite sides of each other.

Every year we see the same PETA members call hunters “uneducated, coward, trailer trash, with small penises…”, very grown up I must say. While in due turn the same hunters call PETA members “idiotic, pansy ass, veggie eating homos…”, which are also very childish remarks. There are no good arguments being made here and nothing good will come of it.

As a retired soldier in the armed forces, I am one of the many who protected or are protecting your right to say the things you do, so now hear me.

To PETA;
I am a hunter, meat eater, and yes I like my carrots too, like it or not, I don’t care. At the same time if you want to eat only veggies fine, I have no problem with that either, in fact I applaud your steadfast enthusiasm, and dedication to your cause, but all you PETA folks should know that you are the definite minority in this country. Your antics and extreme demonstrations are not doing you any good. The name calling, finger pointing and illegal actions you use to get your point across is nothing short of childish. I find the more people I talk to, the more that are simply laughing at you or are merely annoyed. I work with a couple people, that are members of your organization, and they curse me under their breath every chance they get and then in the next breath talk about going to get some pot and getting stoned later. Now the last I checked, hunting is legal and pot is not, so to criticize me, with out looking at your self first is just plain hypocrisy. Not to say that all PETA members are pot users, just remember when you point your finger at someone there are 3 pointing back at you.

To all the hunters;
or at least the ones on this posting, just shut up. You are not doing your cause any good either. You are dealing with fanatics that have nothing better to but research the internet and shoot holes in everything you say. You are making yourselves look just as foolish as they do. Like it or not they are here to stay. Incidentally they love it when you frequent their site, so they can get off on calling you all inadequate, under evolved, rednecks. Let them have their opinions, because fear not they are not going to ban hunting or fishing any time soon for one simple reason, $$MONEY$$. This country revolves around the almighty dollar and the hunting/fishing industry generates hundreds of millions of dollars in retail and tax revenue and there is no chance this country will allow a funding source, like that, to simply fade away. You would be bettering your cause by concentrating your efforts on creating awareness, getting the kids involved, and getting rid of the trouble makers that make your past time look bad.

I think you all have the IQ of a 2 year old and you should all be ashamed of your selves. I find this posting to be the equivalent of a playground argument at my daughters elementary school.

Every one has the right to an opinion which is what makes America great, but when opinion turns to hypocrisy and belittlement, it some times make me want to move to Russia.

Posted by: MSG (Ret) James Canton | September 12, 2007 09:53 AM

Christopher,

Unlike ADEK, B12 is water soluble and overdosing is not usually an issue.

A person's ability to extract nutrients from their food declines as they age. Thus, whether omnivores or vegetarians they can be prescribed B12 supplementation. As you are probably aware, vitamin D is not native to milk, but an added supplement.

Contrary to your assertion "you prove my point when you list numerous other forms of B12 supplementation",
I listed foods that naturally have occurrence of B12, as well as citing the Iranian vegan study (where sufficient B12 was derived through a strictly vegan diet).

You also make the claim,"Most of my patients who have high cholesterol do so because they eat excessive amounts of highly processed plant material, namely vegetable oil and wheat."

Could you please explain the mechanism behind that, since plant material contains zero cholesterol?

Posted by: Mike Quinoa | September 12, 2007 01:27 PM

Mr. Quinoa,

A tiny minority of the elderly require B12 supplementation. B12 is the only water soluable vitamin stored in any amount. Four months or so in the average omnivore's liver.

In human evolution which as best we can tell occured in Africa, no access to fermented foods (yeast), concentrated algae or Chinese herbs were available. Can a vegan survive sans meat? Absolutely. But he must invent creative ways to injest the proper balance of nutrients. In meat/animal products B12 is all we know of for sure. Another example...If you take a large group of people and give them beta carotene supplements they will be less healthy than placebo groups. If you feed those same people foods with large amounts of beta carotene they are more healthy than the controls. If you must rely on a dietary supplement to survive it is not likely as complete as the original natural source of the nutrient likely contains products neccesary for health that we haven't discovered. Obviously I am, to some degree surmising here.

The fattening of America is mostly due to the easy accessiblity of simple carbohydrate calories derived from grain products often processed with processed vegetable oils. Donuts for example. Obviously ultra processed meat products are no better and once again I say that I do not advocate them in a healthy diet. Also, I can't imagine that those faux meat products some vegans eat are all that healthy. Why do they make those things anyway? If y'all hate meat so much why do you eat fake meat?

Cholesterol is a neccesary body component in numerous physiologic processes. Estrogen and testosterone are made from cholesterol. Cholesterol is derived from two sources: injested (minor) and hepatically manufactured (major). Over production leads to the vascular diseases we all know and love. The body makes cholesterol from saturated fats. Meat, cheese and butter are sources of natural saturated fats, but a large portion of saturated fats in the average American diets come from processed vegetable oils (margarine, shortening, partially hydrogenated vegetable oils). These seem to be worse for serum cholesterol levels. If you ate nothing but donuts and I ate nothing but venison, even if I ate more calories than you, my cholesterol would be much lower than yours. This is illustrative only. Of course a vegan or vegetarian diet is much healthier than the average American diet, but it is not the healthiest as vegans purport. Plants as it turns out do have the building blocks for cholesterol...

Posted by: Christopher Cochran MD | September 12, 2007 04:12 PM

Christopher,

I wouldn't call up to 30 percent of adults aged 50 years (B12 supplementation) and older a "tiny minority."

I agree that it seems logical that a whole food would provide a better and more complete nutrient base than a specific supplement, but there are exceptions to every rule. You yourself noted that all forms of B12 are natural and can be vat-cultivated.

Most plant fats and oils are naturally unsaturated. Of course, through hydrogenation you could saturate them and thus make them problematic. But that is not their natural state.

I know there are vegans who follow a poor diet, but in most cases I would say vegans research their diet more than omnivores. And by staying with whole plant foods (fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds, beans, whole grains) one can enjoy a healthy lifestyle. I rarely eat fake meat (out with friends at a hamburger joint).

Very few diets can be called natural these days. The animals 99% of us eat have been raised with antibiotics and growth hormones, the fish produced in unsanitary and polluted factory farm-like conditions (with sea lice a problem in salmon farming).

I certainly agree that most of us eat way too much processed food, hydrogenated and trans fat, glucose-fructose and simple carbs. None of that stuff has to be part of a healthy vegan diet.

The fact that vegans require B12 supplementation to me is a non-issue. I don't see too many meat-eaters eat raw meat the way a true carnivore naturally would. And unlike some of our simian cousins, few humans consume insects, which on the whole are a far richer source of protein than meat.

Posted by: Mike Quinoa | September 12, 2007 06:59 PM

So what is the big deal about hunting? Im a hunter and I see nothing wrong with it. Its an easy and cheap way to put food on the table. Hunting has been around since the begining of time and it will continue in the future and theres nothing you can do about it.
I am not evil and I do respect all animals, I am 100% aginst animal abuse. But that has nothing to do with hunting like all you retards think.

Posted by: greg | September 13, 2007 12:50 AM

Mike,
My assessment is based on my own experiences to some degree. Out of the two thousand or so patients in my practice, ten or twenty are B12 deficient and I am fairly diligent in checking.

It seems our opinions are not that far off and I appreciate this interesting interchange. I will concede that if I was forced to eat the poor quality
animal products that most Americans have access to I would probably eat a lot less meat. However I am lucky enough to be able to choose ultimate quality products for myself and family. Bugs, no I
haven't gone that far, but arthropods yes, crawfish, crabs, lobsters, shrimp...very close to bugs.

Best Wishes

Posted by: Christopher Cochran MD | September 13, 2007 01:38 PM

greg what is the big deal about hunting hmm where to start its better meat than at the store not pumped full of hormones the animal was free and not stressed and by you eating that meat it is money not going to a factory farming industry.. oops this makes good since that means that your not buying meat from the store that is "inhumanely treated" as long as you are management hunting that is taking the oldest of the herd that has lived a good life and bred off

Posted by: Anonymous | September 13, 2007 07:07 PM

Hi Christopher,

It's the variety of the posts on these message boards that makes them so interesting. I think it's great that PETA provides this open, uncensored forum for participants of all mindsets. And having your own personal views severely tested helps to either strengthen your stance or gives you pause to reconsider.

Posted by: Mike Quinoa | September 13, 2007 08:16 PM

In 10 years hunters have dropped 1.5 million in number and total 12.5 million in the U.S. alone.

PETA has 1.6 million members worldwide and thinks that's worth bragging about.HAHA!

Posted by: Mars | September 14, 2007 08:15 AM

I wonder if this message will get through because neither the extreme pro or con side will cotton to it but here goes --> hunting and fishing is not evil. The settlers, Indians all needed animal fur and meat for sustenance. Nowadays, most of us are content to shop at the local everything/all-day mart. (although I still love to shoot cans with my trusty .22 caliber) The problem comes from the extremers on both sides --> unfortunately, many of the more animated animal rights activists come across as blabbermouths who pontificate morality to the rest of us while I've met many a hard core hunter who is a paranoid meathead (you can't miss them at the rifle ranges). The sides are drawn and 90% of the citizenry stay away from the issue entirely

Posted by: Jeff | September 14, 2007 10:03 AM

So mars are you saying you are happy you are outnumbered nearly
ten to one?

Posted by: Christopher Cochran MD | September 14, 2007 10:33 AM

Mars, you really have to find another hobby.

The bottom line is that hunting and fishing are on the decline, PETA gains more and more support every year, and vegetarianism/veganism is on the rise. The end result is the lives of more and more animals are being spared every year. These are things worth CELEBRATING.

Oh, and guess what, the number of non-human animals on this planet vastly outnumbers human animals...

Posted by: Michele | September 14, 2007 12:49 PM

Doug,

I will say that is a very nicely written thesis, you have done a wonderful job of showing every one here that you have an excellent vocabulary. However I would argue that most of your writing is an opinion, considering that most of the world would disagree with you, in part or entirely.

I will briefly touch on your 5 premises to try explaining my thoughts.

Premise #1 - Killing a living being for no reason is wrong.

To some extent I would agree with you but this statement is entirely too vague. I my opinion this would cover everything from people to animals all the way down to insects of all types. With that I know you would swat flies, spray for roaches, and poison ants if they where in you home and that being the case you to sir are a “speciesist” in that you are selecting which beings you choose to protect. When you decide to harbor the rights of all beings, and not just the cute cuddly ones then I will have more respect for you opinion. This may sound a little extreame but take into account there are monks that believe in the rights of ALL living creatures, and I can respect them. Not to mention they aren’t breaking laws, or harassing others in an effort to get their point across.

Premise #2 - Hunting (when not necessary for sustenance) is killing a living being for no reason.

The key words here are “for no reason.” Killing animals for no reason I would agree is wrong. Going and shooting birds, deer, coyote, or any other animal for the shear sake of killing while maintaining no intention of use is wrong. I have seen this personally; I discourage it and always act accordingly when I do see it. True hunting however, has a couple good reasons for being used. Population control - Hunting is a far less expensive then the mentioned birth control methods you spoke of. In fact it is a viable source of income for many states.
Food – I like meat and so does my family. Yes, I could go buy meat/food at the store however the animals I harvest are cleaner and healthier then any meat you can buy. To take this a step further I also grow a garden in effort to limit our families intake of chemical laced food. In my opinion, I would rather have animals harvested by hunter that intend to use the animal for nourishment rather then having states hire sharp shooters the mass cull animals to keep the population in check, and yes that is happening across the country.

Premise #3 - Therefore, hunting is wrong.

This is a complete matter of opinion. Killing animals for the shear sake of killing is wrong and not considered hunting by true hunters.

4. Anything wrong is immoral.

This is simply a ridiculous statement. I could list hundreds of things that are wrong but not necessarily immoral, but I won’t. I will only list one; running a red light on purpose at 3am though wrong would not be considered immoral by most.

5. Therefore (from 3 and 4) hunting is immoral.

Again this is simply your, opinion and that is mostly what we are seeing on this blog. opinions.

I guess my point is this;

I feel this needless bickering and, name calling, is a waste of energy and could be easily redirected towards something important. I feel there are far more pressing matters in this world that need attention, other then the crusade for animals rights. We have millions of homeless living in this country, mothers throwing their new born children in to dumpsters, we have thousands of our soldiers over seas fighting for no real good reason (I am sure you can sympathize with that), we have one of the worst education systems in the world, most families can’t afford to live on a single income, and I could go on and on. I am sorry my friend the animals are the least of our worries.

Don’t get me wrong I am all for humane treatment and I think they should put some angry dogs in Michael Vikc’s cell and I wouldn’t one red cent to Ringling Bros. I just feel people; PETA and hunters alike take things way too far and blow them out of proportion.

Weather you choose to believe it or not I respect your opinion, I just don’t agree with it completely.

Sincearly,

Jim

P.S. I only posted my credentials because I see a lot of PETA members talking about the cowards that don’t use their real name, like “paint you red”, “Lord of the Apes” and “poet”, oh wait those are PEAT folks.

Posted by: James Canton | September 16, 2007 06:15 AM

Great post, Doug. Very well written and thought out.

Anonymous,

The problem is in order to stifle and chill legitimate protest against animal-exploitive industries, the government has hung the Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act over environmental and animal rights activists' heads. Hunters don't have that kind of bullying threat from Uncle Sam.

Posted by: Mike Quinoa | September 17, 2007 11:15 AM

Doug,

I appreciate your argument. I relish the opportunity to see things from your perspective and
am enlightened to a certain degree.

However, like many grand plans that look great on paper, yours fails when practically applied. Communism comes to mind. Wouldn't it be great if we all had perfect equality. Well so much for that.

If we were to abolish the sacrificing of all animals domestic and wild for food or any other purpose, (I will not
argue for or against fur as I have no experience or knowledge of fur, but do include leather goods) the practical ramifications are enormous. Ms. Newkirk seems to want to abolish all ownership of all animals, but I can't seem to find a viable short or long term plan with what we are to do with these animals once they are emancipated. Cows, pigs, goats, chickens, dogs, cats living amongst us in harmony? Will we set aside little countries for them like Israel? Cows, after thousands
of years of line breeding are largely of human construct. Their wild progenitor is extinct. If set free without any regulation they would either die of starvation and disease, or become feral whereby they would breed unchecked and they would get hungry. I can only imagine the ecologic devastation that thousand of hungry cattle would cause. Wildlife, crops, all destroyed. Pigs and goats have shown what they can do when feral as they devastate natural habitats. Chickens, they are toast because all the feral dogs and cats have to have something to eat. Turkeys, well they do feralize
and interbreed with wild turkeys, but I can't imagine they would do very well with the wild dogs and cats about.
The common housecat can kill hundreds of wild birds in a lifetime even with meow mix.

Regarding hunting and conservation. For the last one hundred years or so, we have been fitting the bill for nearly all ecologic restoration and conservation in the US. If you abolish us, then the income base is destroyed and like in those countries that do not allow hunting, in Africa, for instance, the land will be put to use for more economic purposes and will not be viable for wildlife. In those countries in Africa that do not allow hunting, the wildlife populations suffer. I am not making this up.
Conservation is not about only hunting, it is about trying to
blend human encroachment with the needs of wildlife. It's about destroying nonnative plant invaders, or improving habitat to restore waning populations. Preservation groups like the Sierra Club are less effective because, like PETA likes to point out, we have ruined the natural environment. We must use our knowledge of ecology and wildlife management to restore as best we can to as wild a state as we can, but they will never be virgin again. You can't take forty acres in the middle of the Ozarks and completely leave it alone and expect it to 'naturalize.' It just doesn't happen. Those few relatively untouched areas are precious and vanishing.

Everything we do to benefit our species hurts other species. When you promote
plant based agriculture, you promote the continued domination of wildlife habitat for the benefit of mankind. You promote the destruction of
natural waterways for irrigation and the pollution of those waterways with agricultural runoff (no, not just cow or chicken manure, but fertilizers and pesticides). If you demand organic farming, the problem is even worse because you now have to demand even more land to feed everyone, including all the feral goats, pigs and cows. If you use pesticides you kill bugs that are according to your definition, sentient beings. When you destroy habitat, you kill everything that used that habitat. I contend that the ecological footprint of a vegan is no smaller than that of an omnivore.
I suppose you might justify this domination of the land to sustain you and all the other vegans. Without these deaths you will die yourself. This area is more gray than you want it to be. I contend that you kill far more animals either directly or indirectly than I do. On my land once dominated by non native grasses and plants I now see such a biodiversity that sometimes I just sit and marvel that I could have done so much good actively playing a role in the restoration of a
native ecosystem. I do not like to accomplish things the PETA way by being passive aggressive and boycotting everything I don't like. I suppose walking around naked in public is fairly active though, but I am not sure that
it has proven to save many animals. Finally, animal birth control, the most hilarious wildlife management practice I have ever imagined.
I will not go in the the enormous impracticalities of this notion, rather I would like to address the notion of the specieists who want to enact denying deer et. al. their inalienable right to do the one thing they were born to do, procreate. Adolf Hitler, before he decided to kill them all, proposed sterilization of the less desirables that were breeding indiscriminately. I think if
we are all equal, we all should decide when and where we want to reproduce. You would deny deer, your equal, your brothers and sisters, the right of free reproduction. Sad. My irony only points out
the complexities of wildlife management...leave it to the experts.

Also, I contend that myself and my family have an enriched nutritional life based on our
reasonable consumption of meat, wild and otherwise. I do not wish to simply survive,
I wish for my family and myself to thrive and eating wild game helps ensure that.

Posted by: Christopher Cochran MD | September 17, 2007 11:51 AM

Anonymous, not all animal rights activists are violent. By your own statistics, 90-95% are NOT violent.

ALL hunters kill animals that do not have a hope of defending themselves against a gun, bow and arrow, knife, club, leg trap, etc... That is why ALL hunters are cowards.

Doug, thank you for a very clear, analytical explanation of this issue.

Posted by: Michele | September 17, 2007 11:34 PM

Michelle,

If you had ever been hunting you would know that the animals do very well against our cheating implements. They don't just line up in the woods and fall over dead for
us, believe it or not a fair amount of skill and practice is involved.
I don't think bravery is so you may be right we may all be cowards, but the odds of that are astronomical. Almost no animal have ever been hunted to extinction, at least in modern times. People will argue about passenger pigeons, dodo birds, et al., but in all these cases habitat destruction played the larger role in the animals demise. Of all the endangered species in North America, I can think of only two that have ever been considered 'game' and both of these are endangered because of habitat loss. Maybe they used to live where your city is now.

Posted by: Christopher Cochran MD | September 18, 2007 06:29 PM

Christopher Cochran, maybe you are forgetting about FISH and the species who have been hunted to near extinction (cod being the biggie in my country)... That has nothing to do with habitat loss, but mainly from overfishing.

Do you think that any of us animal rights people want to hear your justification of killing animals that the animals "do very well" when being hunted???? What the f*** does that have to do with making it acceptable for humans to hunt in the first place??? Humans do NOT have the right to kill animals (and although this particular topic is about hunting, my statement also applies to habitat destruction and human pollution, such as from factory farms and toxic chemicals).

And by the way, even though I refuse to address you with your "MD" (nobody else on the PETA files throws their qualifications around the way you do), you could at least spell my name correctly, since it is right there on the screen!

Posted by: Michele | September 19, 2007 10:31 PM

Michelle,

I hope that having your name misspelled is the worst thing that happens to you this week.

Cod are over fished for commercial reasons. Sport fisherman quite often return their catch and do not fish to near extinction. Numerous animals have been hunted to the brink of extinction for money or commercial reasons. Buffalo, whitetail deer, wild turkey, and numerous fish have all been harvested to near extinction or their ranges were greatly shrunken due to harvesting for economic reasons. Game animals as the name implies are hunted under the auspices and management of state and federal agencies that have in many cases through management of habitat and reintroduction regained much or all of their previous vigor. (I am rarely a fan of government, but this is a success story) If not for those agencies, funded almost entirely by hunters and fishers, many of the species we debate today would be gone.
I do no, nor do I advocate commercial hunting. Commercial fishing demands scrutiny and careful regulation. As it turns out, I do not advocate any hunting that isn't "fair chase" or canned hunts, which are a shameful minority of hunts.

If you don't want to hear my opinion, don't read what I have to say. I have and will continue to read your opinions as they provide me a greater understanding of a philosophy that is alien to me. I wouldn't want you to broaden your horizons. I think the reason everyone gets angry at me putting "MD" behind my name
may have something to do with your disbelief that someone who may be intelligent could possibly have opinions like this. I am sure someone will gladly refute my intelligence. I don't know if I am intelligent, but I do, based on a lifetime of experience in
the wilds of the Ozark hills, (they aren't really mountains), and my family background (my mother is a noted wildlife biologist in my state) know what I am talking about when it comes to wild plants and animals in my area.

"do very well" has the f*** to do with the debate because everyone seems to think these animals are defenseless. PETA members in the woods maybe, but not wild animals. They don't fight back much, but they seem to believe the best defense is a good defense. It's called hunting not 'shooting animals' for a reason.
They most often elude us, which could only make you a little happier over your misspelled name. Do I lose a letter grade in comp for a spelling error?

You do have the right to kill animals and you do, though indirectly, when you eat all those delicious tofu burgers and the like. Soybean
fields and most other crops are enormous green expanses of lost habitat. No bugs, no weeds, no habitat. Albeit some of the largest deer I have ever seen are in soybean country, I presume from eating crop residue, but this is a minor benefit. Cattle farming does destroy habitat as I know too well in my area. However, it is possible to blend livestock and native habitat to a degree as long we avoid overgrazing.
Some of the best quail hunting
I have enjoyed was in the Sonoran desert amongst grazing
cattle. By the way, I don't speak cow, but they too seemed to be enjoying their life of slavery, almost unrecognizable
compared to the cows in your propaganda video. . Soybeans are not perfectly adapted, like most crops, to the pests of the US or anywhere else. It takes a lot of dead bugs to make a tofu burger. Do I care if you eat tofu and cause the death of bugs? Of course I don't. But stop pretending your presence on this planet is so benign. The world is not coming to an end over cow farts....Other than raking me over the coals, what have you done to improve animal's lives today?

Posted by: Christopher Cochran MD | September 20, 2007 12:18 AM

Michelle,
How can you even place hunters in the same boat as commercial fisherman that are over fishing the seas? The two are unrelated in this particular discussion.

And you’re probably right about you morons not wanting to hear the justifications. You don't want to hear common sense either. All you want to hear is people who agree with your dogmatic, narrow minded views, and "let nature run it's course" as another PETA member has said. Well here is a news flash you, humans are part of nature too, and who are you to say that we don't or shouldn't qualify as a natural predator in this world? I for one, am going to do my natural part and hunt, because I, unlike you, am at the top of the food chain.

Posted by: Fred | September 20, 2007 06:27 AM

"Humans do NOT have the right to kill animals "

Yes we do and as much right as any other animal on this planet.

Posted by: Mars | September 20, 2007 07:55 AM

Mr. Cochran and Mr. Canton:

I've read and taken note of your comments.

Thank you, Mike and Michele....

Doug

Posted by: Doug | September 20, 2007 04:49 PM

so you all think hunting is wrong and we should save the animals, thats the stupidest thing i've ever heard. none of you all would be here if it wasnt for hunting and it dosent mean your any less intellegent if you do hunt. so people like to eat things other than lettuce. No ones forcing you to eat meat so quit crying about it.

Posted by: carl | September 24, 2007 12:48 AM

to the woman who refered to a man as a inbred hilljack, are you serious why dont you grow up, seriously. I've been hunting for years and i'm a woman i may live in the country but im not a inbred that just shows what kinda of people you all are. it's sad really because without hunting and fishing you wouldnt be here and that goes for everyone. you all think hunting is cruel and inhumane well guess what THEY ARE ANIMALS!! they were put here to eat (and i do eat them everyday) and just because i dont live in a city and conform to your stupid views on animal rights dosent mean that im any less intellegent than any of you all. so go on and eat your salads and try not being such idiots when it comes to hunting ok thanks alot

Posted by: carrie | September 24, 2007 01:04 AM

I am an avid deer hunter. I agree that some hunters are complete meatheads and make the rest of us look bad, but not all hunters are out to shoot a big buck. I shoot deer for the meat. It is much cheaper and humane to go out and shoot the animal myself than the buy beef in the store that has been killed in who knows what way. Also, I prepare all off season for bow hunting. My biggest goal is to make the kill as short and painless as possible. I think any hunter that doesn't respect the animal enough to give it a quick death should not be in the woods. I have shot deer that do not even know that they are hit, until their blood pressure drops low enough to disorient them. At this point they are not able to feel what is going on, and as a result the death is as painless as possible. It is definitely less painless than starvation, being eaten by a predator, or getting hit by a car. I sincerely hope that this post makes it to the blog because I see very few posts from anyone supporting hunting. I'm not trying to be argumentative, and I am not trying to say that hunting is for everyone, but I do believe that those who want to hunt should be able to. I don’t criticize any of you for being vegetarians, so I expect that same in return. Most people who hunt do it because their parents did, and it is a tradition in the family. I enjoy every second in the woods with my father and brother. We have fun both fishing and hunting, and we don't kill anything that we are not planning on eating. Nothing is killed just because we like to kill. Thank you for listening, and maybe I have encouraged some of you to be a little more open minded about hunting.

Posted by: Steve Palasek | September 28, 2007 11:52 AM

You people make me sick! With all the cruelty to children that goes on in this world and you want to worry about hunters!

The article in CNN is inaccurate and hunting and fishing are actually on an upswing. At the same time, membership in PETA is declining!

When all is said and done your fringe group will cease to exist.

Oh and you can cite all the celebrity nitwits you want as indication of your "growing numbers", fact is no one really cares.

Posted by: Leo | September 29, 2007 08:30 AM

I am an avid deer hunter. I agree that some hunters are complete meatheads and make the rest of us look bad, but not all hunters are out to shoot a big buck. I shoot deer for the meat. It is much cheaper and humane to go out and shoot the animal myself than the buy beef in the store that has been killed in who knows what way. Also, I prepare all off season for bow hunting. My biggest goal is to make the kill as short and painless as possible. I think any hunter that doesn't respect the animal enough to give it a quick death should not be in the woods. I have shot deer that do not even know that they are hit, until their blood pressure drops low enough to disorient them. At this point they are not able to feel what is going on, and as a result the death is as painless as possible. It is definitely less painless than starvation, being eaten by a predator, or getting hit by a car. I sincerely hope that this post makes it to the blog because I see very few posts from anyone supporting hunting. I'm not trying to be argumentative, and I am not trying to say that hunting is for everyone, but I do believe that those who want to hunt should be able to. I don’t criticize any of you for being vegetarians, so I expect that same in return. Most people who hunt do it because their parents did, and it is a tradition in the family. I enjoy every second in the woods with my father and brother. We have fun both fishing and hunting, and we don't kill anything that we are not planning on eating. Nothing is killed just because we like to kill. Thank you for listening, and maybe I have encouraged some of you to be a little more open minded about hunting.

Posted by: Steve | October 2, 2007 02:49 PM

Dear Carrie,
Please forgive me if I am misinterpreting your comments. Your capitalizing THEY ARE ANIMALS reflects an attitude that I don't understand. There seems to be a lack of compassion, kindness or any attempt of knowing them beyond something to kill. When you really look at animals, it wasn't them that:
- Beat chunks of flesh out of Christ then nailed him to a timber to die.
- Were responsible for the holocaust.
- Enslave races of people and treated them horribly.
- Hate because of a different skin color.
- Responsible for the war in Iraq.
- Judge people based on looks and money.
- Kill for the fun of it or to mount a head on a wall.

Animals seem right nice to have around to me.

Posted by: Murn | October 5, 2007 01:05 PM

I know everyone has there own opinion on things and so forth. It would be nice to get some peoples opinions. I am doing a report for school on PETA and hunting. I am actually a WOMEN HUNTER, and by the way I AM NOT DISGUSTING. There are things you guys do for fun or whatever and there are things we do for fun. We dont call you people names or disgusting. YOU SHOULD THINK ABOUT THAT!!!

Posted by: Ashton | October 9, 2007 12:34 AM

first let me point this out if people like "ME" don't hunt the we would be overrun by wildlife! the spot of hunting lets u get out and enjoy wat the lord has made. Now lets see here the lord was a hunter a hunter of men!!!!!!!

Posted by: colton nash | October 9, 2007 08:43 PM

i agree with carrie....there are a few hunter who are idiots but not all hunter are like that...i dont know one hunter who shots things just to kill....i live in alaska where you pretty much need to hunt...you dont get to go to the super market everyday and get stuff...you kill you food and save up...we dont kill to mount on the walls...we do it because we need to survive...and if it wasnt for hunter then alot of wildlife conservation would be history...along with animals...

Posted by: ak90 | October 19, 2007 05:32 AM

FOOLS!!! all of you!!! did you know that the Number 1 contributer to preserving wildlife and wetlands is HUNTERS?

Posted by: That Guy | October 24, 2007 08:53 PM

Im a hunter and you peta people need to get a grip on reality hunting is a logical thing to do. If people did not hunt farmers would be out crops and money. the deer would be over populated and it would just be an issue all over. Hunting puts meat on the table and is cheaper than paying for beef at the store. so peta im for stopping dog abuse and animal crullity but hunting an fishing is somthing that needs to be done.

Posted by: man | November 5, 2007 10:03 AM

hunting is much more than just going in the woods and killing something. hunting has been a way of life since the beginning of mankind. so why is it now that we look at hunting in a cruel way? many people look to money for food, clothing, and profit. many of you peta people need to realize that the difference in hunting and killing animals for fun is the difference of night and day. its the hunters that go out and kill just to be killing something that give us a bad name. many people hunt becuase its their heritage, its a craft that has been passed down from generation to generation to provide food and clothing for their families, so dont think all hunters are the same, you need to take a more defined look at what a "hunter" is.

Posted by: garth adkins | November 5, 2007 11:47 AM

First off hunting helps balance out the habitats, don't believe me it's in the bible, they use to sacrifice animals to God. Hunting and fishing is on the increase..espically in Michigan, they have just raised the fishing license to $40 and people still buy them, I think you guys should change your name to People Eating Tasty Animals. I have never ever seen a really healthy vegetarian....earth to all you vegetarians EAT MEAT it's good for you!!!! And finally hunter's are not cowards we are actually helping the population of the animals so it doesn't get out of control and there have been numerous studies proving so. And if you guys don't like what I have to say my email address is Cas89@frontiernet.net and you guys can try to prove me wrong but you won't ever and i agree with Leo PETA membership is going down. So just Eat Meat and enjoy life!!!!

Posted by: Deer Hunter For Life | November 16, 2007 09:40 PM

Carrie said it all. I hope that you all understand that not all hunters are out for "sport" and/or "trophies". I don't think either are good reasons to take life, but I do hunt. My family and I use the meat and depend on it. I have never taken a shot that I was not sure would bring a quick end. We grow our veggies but they don't grow year-round and there's only so much canned or frozen you can eat. Additionally, deer populations are very high in the Midwest. Everyone loves to see the pretty deer in the field, but when population explodes the starving and diseased deer will not be nearly as cute.

Posted by: Bob | November 18, 2007 02:29 PM

I just watched the PETA movie on hbo for the first time. I have never heard of PETA before until now and it made me sick listening to that bitch sure it made me sick watching some of the video footage but she made me sick more than anything. Now with hunting I am 22 years old I live in a good size city I’m not a hill billy like most think hunters are I have been hunting since I was 12 years old. Hunting is a true tradition in my family. I grew up in northern IL and now live in northern IN the deer population around here is crazy out of control there are more deer accidents than murders or suicides around here. I went for a drive the other day right around dusk and I bet I counted over 400 deer right near the city. If it wasn’t for hunting there would be so many more deer and they would get sick with disease and not be as healthy. And for all of you animals freaks that haven’t heard of the disease called chronic wasting disease well it is very bad around this area it happens when the deer population gets too big and they get very sick the deer’s brain swells up so bad it basically explodes. They get so skinny they look like they haven’t ate in weeks. So what is worse killing them to keep the population under control and helping in deer car related accidents or not hunting and having all kinds of disease? Hunting for me at least is nothing like those videos that PETA puts out of the slaughtering houses for me it is very humane I never make the animals suffer at least I try not to. And how you try to make us hunters feal bad saying we have small dicks well not to brag but I don’t fit into that category. I will always be a hunter as long as I can still walk into the woods. God Bless everybody that supports hunting.

Posted by: Jake (Avid Hunter) | November 21, 2007 06:10 PM

I would just like to say all you people claiming hunter are bad. Answer this Question what is PETA's Plan for deseises that will come about with an over population in the animal herd. For example hunting is on the decrease and habatat is growing and now in Wisconsin CWD is killing Deer slowly and painfully. Now tell me how you are going to fix that problem without hunter. Let me guess PETA will medicate them. That is damn joke! Guess what PETA Doesn't have enough followers to even come close to controling this promblem. Just to let you all know most hunter enjoy watching animal just and much in happy natural environment but in order to do so the herd needs to be in control and thats when hunters come into play. So, before you comment on this know your fact and quit being close minded. Granted I'm a hunter and i beleive in ethical treatment of animals but to bash hunter who are acctually help your cause is absolute bull crap. Enough said. so pull your head out of your reaars and understand the real problem we arn't working together.

Posted by: Andrew | November 30, 2007 09:34 PM

hunters are a dying breed but bears are attacking houses and camps endangering peoples lives. do you care more about the over population of deer in cwd areas spreading to other areas. what about these animals. the gov't is alowing hunters like me to bring in multiple tag deer in these areas for a price but to help control the disease from spreading to anywhere else. this is a good thing. the money goes the helping everything in that zone. and the wild hogs up in northern wisconsin are becoming a nuesences and they were askling us to bring in these hogs even if we didnt have a tag. oh and, theres nothing better than eating a tender backstrip of venisen!

Posted by: daddy nut | December 6, 2007 01:57 PM

I would like to start out by saying that i am a 16 year old hunter.I did not come on this sight just to say how much I hate PETA and how wrong you are, and i dont plan on changing anyones mind much like no one will change mine.I came on this sight to do a project for school in which i have to write a letter to someone about somethign i feel strongly about, (hunting)when i stumbled upon this article which I read and was truely insulted.Im just hear to say that let all of the non hunters know that hunting isnt what PETA makes it out to be. Id like to start of by saying that i like to consider myself an "ethical hunter" . PETA makes it seam liek hunters walk into the woods with their guns and just start shooting every animal they see until it no longer moves. Unofortunetly for hunters sake there are people like this but most hunters are not. I know what my firearm or bow and myslef are capable of doing. I always make sure that before i take a shot at an animal that it will be lethal in one shot and that the amimal will feel no pain and will die instantly or within seconds after. Secondly i would like to touch on the whole hick, hillbilly, redneck crap. Yeah i have to say that there are alot of hunters liek this but it doesnt make them bad, and... i am not liek this.I live in a 400000 dollar house and my mom drives a cadilac and my dad a 50000 dollar truck.also my brother who is a doctor is an avid hunter. So that is a false statment. Thirdly i would liek to mention the whole coward and small penis thing. The coward thing i dont knwo what that even means, or why they woudl call us cowards i consider my dad who is a hunter to be the braveset man i know.And no one in their right mind can belive that small penis thing. I also keep hearign the whole " why do you have heads on your wall?"and i do have deer heads on my wall becase killing a deer is a challenging thing to do and yes i will admit it is somethign tha i am proud of and i want to enjoy their beauty forever. And finaly to say that we are evil. I have the utmost respect for every animal i take or decide not to take. I dont go in the woods blow away the first deer i see and laugh evily while i do it. I selectivly take deer. And afterwards i feel a sence of sadness that i took this animals life. But unfortunetly i have to kill the animal in order to eat it. And to touch on that i do eat every animal i kill. Venison is my favorite food.Im not goign to lie i do enjoy a nice steack from the butcher but if i had the voice of venison or beef id chose venison. So to wrap this up, this is baically a description of most hunters and for all you non hunters out there dont listen to what PETA tells you because they have no idea. (BTW a non-hunter is someone who is someone who doesnt hunt and is on the edge about how they feel about hunting)

Posted by: Matt Soule | December 17, 2007 07:02 PM

hey to all i have to say is save an animal shoot an anti hunter

Posted by: jon | January 9, 2008 01:37 PM

hey ive hunted all my life and i find nothing wrong with it people to grow up and realize it is a free country and the world doesnt revolve around them . now i love animals and i enjoy hunting them too. but ill make this acception once and once only save an animal and shoot an anti hunter :P

Posted by: jon | January 9, 2008 01:39 PM

A quick question, how much has PETA actually donated toward protecting animals, state parks and wildlife areas. Seems like all they do is bitch and moan about how humans are evil in taking the lives of animals. So, maybe we should try to convert animals that hunt animals to vegetarians, that way we can all live in harmony. Looking forward to your response.

Posted by: Question | February 12, 2008 05:20 PM

you guys rock! go animals

Posted by: Sarah Willmore | February 21, 2008 12:37 PM

I enjoy hunting and perhaps I'm a savage, mabye I'm sadistic but ur not going to change me. So talk all u want make penis jokes, I'm gonna sit right here and eat some deer jerky and watch u guys go crazy.

Posted by: Cody | March 24, 2008 08:50 PM

Hey Jack, I mean this in the most polite way your argument needs a lot of work. It did not convince me of anything except their are more bird watchers. Have you ever written a worthy argument before I mean the whole idea of stocking animals. Yes they do stock fish and you know what that is good because the lakes would be in pretty rough shape. But the Idea of them breeding Bears Elk and Deer and stocking them in the forest. If there was no hunting in my community a gaurentee that there would be animal overpopulation would lead to animal deaths of sickness and starvation. I Gaurentee that the death of an animal by a bullet or arrow is much more humane and less painfull then sick ness or being eaten alive by a predator. I hope that you will rewtrite your argument to at least earn you some credibility because as far as I'm concerned your argument is no better than any other blog or rant you would find on the internet.

Posted by: mark | April 6, 2008 12:04 PM

just a question to all of you peta people do any of you have any idea what would happen to the ecosystem if nobody like me and my fellow hunters hunted. lets take deer for example im sure a few of you have either almost hit a deer or have hit a deer with your car. if nobody hunted then that would happen everyday all day intill the deer population became so overpopulated that disease would spred through the herd and then they would all die. I am all for people having there own oponions. This is america have your way of thinking but dont down other people for the way they think. and do you honestly think that there would of been a peta in the 1800's. you think they had vegie burritos back then no people had to hunt for there food or you starve. I hate people who poach or just kill and dont eat the animal but i think that people who do it the right way and eat the animal i see no harm, what if hunting is the only way to feed your family or your self. If this even gets posted i just wanted to get my point out to peta people if you are a 100% anti hunter then you are 100% uneducated and ignorant so enjoy your vega burger or burrito and i will contuine liveing as our ancestors did by hunting and not starving
have a good day

Posted by: goodolboy | April 22, 2008 02:16 AM

and i really like how your internet sight limits what people can post so that you soft hearted saviors don't feel like your being picked on by the rest of the world

Posted by: SFH | May 5, 2008 11:29 PM